Topic: Is Kihon Boring ?

[Moley]

The Late Master Nakayama, Chief instructor of the J.K.A. once said about Kawasoe Sensei:
"Through his mastery of karate basics he has come to reach a level few achieve, his technique inspires all who see it to strive for the ideals of Shotokan Karate."
We have all seen Kawasoe Sensei's high standard , but how important do you feel Kihon training is in achieving this goal?
Do you enjoy doing Kihon? Would you like to do more? Or do you think it's boring and we should just get on to the interesting bits like Kumite?
Some J.K.A. classes may concentrate on just one technique all evening, i.e. just doing Oi Tsuki over and over again. Is this possible in our Dojo or would it just make our members stay away?
Some people actually get a feelgood factor after doing loads and loads of Kihon. Are you one of these or would you rather slog it out against a partner?
This Forum is for discussion...Let us know what you think.

[Huw]

Kihon is the least glamorous part of training but it seems to me it's the most important part. If you have poor technique where does that leave your kumite or kata ? Kihon seems to be the foundation for everything else.

I think the speed at which kihon taining is done is important. Too fast and people will concentrate on keeping up rather than good form. Sensei Eryl's class (7- 8 ) last week was particularly interesting due to the concentration on hip movement. It seems to me to get this technique working well a student has to start slowly and gradually build up speed over a long period.

[Lloydie]

Kihon is repetitive, however this is a necessary component of the training.  We are learning to use our bodies in different "unnatural" ways, and such changes take time, effort and repetition.  Whether the repetitive training of kihon is boring is down to the student and the teacher.  If the student has a negative view of kihon, he/she will likely find it the least enjoyable part of practice.  Personally, I quite like kihon (anything but Tekki is an improvement for me ).  I like the idea of pushing myself to try to deliver an effective strike or block, trouble is the first couple seem Ok then the technique starts to deteriorate.  I think Huw's point of starting slow is a good one, in the last couple of weeks I have tried to gradually build up rather than go flat out from word go.  This has the effect, for me, of emphasising my poor points, stance and hips especially, it's that struggle to get it right (or more effective) that I like in kihon.  I guess that in this respect, kihon is firmly a struggle against yourself, rather than a partner/opponent.

In terms of motivation to continue kihon, I think we are lucky to have Kawasoe Sensei as an example of what can be achieved through mastery of kihon.  Every time he comes down someone can be heard to remark "wow! Did you see what he did??"  for me it is important to think that Kawasoe Sensei's superb technique is founded on good kihon.

Interestingly, I remember Dave Hooper saying that following a defeat for Takushoku, they dropped all kumite in favour of kihon.  I think he said something about getting the foundation right?

 Dave

[gizmo]

I like kihon practice as it alows me to switch off. Current worries or anxieties or even minor distractions can be easily put on the backburner. I use kihon training as a sensory experience, focussing in on the physical sensation of performing technique, whilst emptying my mind of any 'uneccessary' thought. Kata and kumite training only really began to be enjoyable for me once I had reached a fair standard in my kihon practice and most movements began to become instinctive.

[Huw]

I like kihon practice as it alows me to switch off.

Agreed. I particularly enjoy Wednesday training in this respect. Because the sensei are concentrating on the kids it's an opporunity to focus 100% on my own kihon (and it's failings !).

[Moley]

The trouble with combinations is that you have to learn the sequences first..
In my opinion this process does not mean that you are improving your kihon, rather you are only concentrating on what comes next. In much the same way as learning a new Kata, one concentrates so much on the order of techniques the actual smooth performance and essential oomph of the moves is lost.
My theory is, that in order to learn karate properly, you have to master kihon. That is "Move like lightning, hit like a bull" and all this in a smooth perfect stance. To master Kihon you need practice in Kihon, not in remembering sequences. Therefore you only begin to learn when you know what you are doing !

Question: Should we therefore concentrate on less techniques but with more repetition and get them right ? i.e. Do Oi-Tsuki all evening ???
Or work on Kata that we have already done in our last Grading ?

What do you think ?

[Huw]

Question: Should we therefore concentrate on less techniques but with more repetition and get them right ? i.e. Do Oi-Tsuki all evening ???

No !! While that approach would be valid in training terms it would leave many/most of the kids complaining that training is 'boring'.

I must say that I reckon the balance of kihon/kumite/kata is usually very good with enough variation to keep everyone's interest.

Oss

Brown-nose  

[Moley]

Is "Welly" (as in "Give it some Welly, or Eryl's version give it some "Hammer") a better word than Kime ?
When one sits back and watches the class going through their paces, the one thing that is frustrating to see in nearly 70% of the students is this lack of "Kime" "Oomph" "Welly" or whatever you call it at the end of the technique. Instructors (Especially Gwyn) are always going on and on about "Get in there"  "Do some damage" "Don't wave your arms about like in a dance..Punch for goodness sake" But still we get "Cruisers". Is it the terminology used? Should more time be spent explaining Kime?
Trouble is though explaining "Kime" is like trying to tell a blind person what Red looks like.
Funny thing though, there are some, even absolute beginners who instinctively "Kime" at the end of their technique and look awesome when they kick or punch. Why is this ?

[Jon C]

Sensei Nakayama wrote that "Practice with the makiwara is the soul of karate and should not be missed even for a single day".

He said that one of the benefits of using the the makiwara is in learning to concentrate the power of the whole body in the fist at the time of impact - this could imply that actually making contact with something is an effective way of learning kime.

Sensei Kawazoe demonstrates on Volume 3 of his video training using kick bags. Very impressive ! Does anyone know if Sensei Akita regularly uses kick bags in his London classes ? The students in the video with Kawazoe look like they are used to this kind of training.

[Moley]

Nice one Jon

The Makiwara

At a nearby lumberyard I had a six-foot post cut and shaped for me. At the bottom it was four inches wide and four inches thick, but the back was cut away so that it tapered to only three quarters of an inch in thickness at the top. This tapering gave the board a little springiness, not too much, but enough to give a little under strong pressure. In a corner of the garden, hidden by walls and trees, I embedded the post in the ground, bracing it with large buried stones. Now the tip of the post came just above the tip of my solar plexus, and to this tip I secured a pad of hard rubber and canvas. This post and pad is an essential training device of a Karateka. It is called a makiwara. The traditional pad was plaited from straw rope, but it was some months afterwards that a teacher taught me how to make one. The straw rope pad is much rougher on the hands, and quickly develops calluses.
   Over the following months I directed millions of foot-pounds of energy at this target. The canvas became flecked and mottled with blood when I punched poorly and grazed my knuckles. I used the makiwara every day. It was (and still is) a deeply personal fight. Nobody could watch me, see my little victories and defeats.
   From the mind came power. In essence it was the mind that willed the leg to thrust, ankle to tense and root the foot to the ground. The hips to pivot, the punching arm to lance out and tense, twisting just on impact, while at the same time the opposite hand clenched and drew into the opposite side. At impact the air was forced out of the body as all the muscles of thorax and abdomen tensed. For a given portion of each day, the makiwara target became the object of concentration, of focus. It was stationary, passive. It had dignity. In facing the makiwara, I had to become composed, just as later I would have to learn composure before a human opponent. My body was like a spring. I worked fifty punches on the right side, fifty on the left side, fifty right, fifty left.

Breath inhaled as the spring coiled, exhaled as the fist contacted, smacking the board back. Thwock! Even in winter I sweated at the makiwara. Each victory over my body, in delivering a good punch or a strike, was yet still a victory for the makiwara> It absorbed good and bad blows with impunity, and took its toll from me in skin, blood and wrist sprains> I faced it and worked. From the punching exercises I would shift stance and strike with the edge of my open hand; the ;shuto; or knife hand. I would also strike with the edge of the closed fist, and with the back of the closed fist. I also tied a pad of canvas and sand to a stout old plum tree and used that for kicking. The muscles of the leg are so powerful that even a resilient makiwara could break with a well-focused kick.
   The makiwara demanded a great deal of me, to stand thus alone, sometimes in the rain, sweating and striking, thinking and non-thinking, watching my form and trying to muster strength, speed and focus, hitting the pad so many times. Yet though demanding, I found great peace in it. The target was simple, the conflict between nerve, bone, muscle, sinew, mind, rubber, wood and earth. Through my conflict with the makiwara I brought slow change to myself and without humiliation or change to the target. This training was not a mere pounding of fists, it was an exercise in concentration and release, it had rhythm, and the gradual building of awareness in timing, distance and strength.
In the karate dojo in Yotsuya, there was a large sign in flowing black characters, the words of Gichin Funakoshi:
The ultimate aim of the art of Karate lies not in victory or defeat but in the perfection of the character of its participants;

From the book Moving Zen by C. W. Nicol.

Moley

[Susan]

Is "Welly" (as in "Give it some Welly, or Eryl's version give it some "Hammer") a better word than Kime ?
When one sits back and watches the class going through their paces, the one thing that is frustrating to see in nearly 70% of the students is this lack of "Kime" "Oomph" "Welly" or whatever you call it at the end of the technique. Instructors (Especially Gwyn) are always going on and on about "Get in there"  "Do some damage" "Don't wave your arms about like in a dance..Punch for goodness sake" But still we get "Cruisers". Is it the terminology used? Should more time be spent explaining Kime?
Trouble is though explaining "Kime" is like trying to tell a blind person what Red looks like.
Funny thing though, there are some, even absolute beginners who instinctively "Kime" at the end of their technique and look awesome when they kick or punch. Why is this ?

I think you have a good point about terminology. Tell us to kime and we tend to tense up, slow down and focus on the end of the technique (sacraficing the all important start). Tell us to "Get in there" and "Do some damage" (i.e. visualise our opponent) and we're far more likely to do the right thing.

You mention people that instinctively 'kime' and look awesome. I do know what you mean - and agree, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on this  article discussing the differences between sports and traditional karate.

http://www.zentokukai.com/Archive/inside_out.html

Here's a quote:

Power in martial arts is a very misunderstood concept. In western society the general concept of power in an individual is having big muscles and/or being big in size. Sports karate in general, having no real way to focus power (never hitting anything or using the art for it's original intent) has over time, focused power externally. An example is; while performing kata, the tightening of the muscles all over the body and the general stiffness that implies kata being an isometric exercise which shows off how "powerful" the performer is to the onlooker (or judge). By tightening the body, the practitioner keeps his energy within his/her own body. Let's put this in a combative context to illustrate the problem; if you are stiff when impacting a target, the energy transfer will be minimal since it is being held inside of the hitter's the body. Of course someone punching this way can hurt another, but the amount of damage would increase tremendously if the technique were done properly. This way of dealing with power can be labeled as "outside to inside"- everything is going back into the practitioner.

Power in martial kata is the total opposite. Again it does not matter how one looks to the onlooker, the only thing that matters is what happens when impact is made to the opponent or target. One should look soft and very relaxed on the outside, in fact, the weaker you look the more powerful your strike will be (is this REALLY true?). This is definitely not a good recipe for sports kata, for if you did your kata this way in tournament you would be seen as lacking kime (focus) and of course judges would give you a low score. This way of dealing with power can be labeled as "inside to outside", everything is going out to the target.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Hi folks,

This is my first post to your forum.

I am currently a middle aged Nidan (45) and one thing I have noticed is that the longer I do Karate the more I appreciate the benefits of Kihon.

I much prefer a lesson which emphasises Kihon as opposed to a lesson with 10-15 move combinations (Kata classes excluded of course  ) and I do feel that it is a case of the more you know - the more you know what you don't know.

Good Karate starts with good Kihon and ends with the struggle to acheive good Kihon.

Regards,

JTH

[Susan]

Hi Ice Maiden, you said on another thread that you used to do Shotokai. I understand that they don't have kime (or that it's something very different)  

Gwyn asked a few posts back "Should more time be spent explaining Kime?".  Do you think your background in Shotokai made it harder or easier to grasp the concept of kime in Shotokan?

Susan

[Icy]

Hi Susan
I used to practice Shukokai - and you are right, the emphasis on kime was somewhat lacking. (Perhaps this may have been relative to the actual club that I attended rather than Shukokai in general).

However, we did a whole lot of pad work - and I think sometimes it is easier to 'recognise' good kime if you have something that gives a reaction (ie the effect of the strike or kick against the pad) rather than practising into thin air.

At one of the sesions last week, Dave and I partnered up (not in the biblical sense you understand )  and I think we both got a lot out of watching each others' technique. I think we both found it a bit mystifying why sometimes we could get an almost perfect technique with good kime, and then with the next punch - lose it completely!

I'm not convinced that all the debate about what words to use when trying to encourage kime in students is all that relevant. I think that the concept is easy to grasp for even the youngest kids, but the actual mastering of it is where the difficulty lies. I mean, if someone explained how to walk a tightrope (ie, that you need to balance) we can all understand the concept, but actually  doing it is much harder and can take an awful lot of practise - for some, they will never be able to get quite right   - it's just not in them - whereas others are born naturals.

Another thing we did in my old club was breaking techniques (no , not little twigs placed at an angle against a wall!!). I think this was probably the closest we got to kime. The emphasis was on focussing the 'contraction' of the muscles and 'power' beyond the kick/punch. I can assure you that when you are about to perform a yoko geri or empi through a block, you certainly are focused (or insane!)

[Lloydie]

Ice Maiden wrote:

Dave and I partnered up (not in the biblical sense you understand  ) and I think we both got a lot out of watching each others' technique. I think we both found it a bit mystifying why sometimes we could get an almost perfect technique with good kime, and then with the next punch - lose it completely!

Yes, I have often found in karate that when you get the technique "right" you then cannot repeat it consistently.   I think the analogue is one which is talked about in education i.e. first you are unconsciously incompetent  i.e. you don't know what you are doing; then you become consciously incompetent i.e. you know what you are doing wrong; then you become consciously competent  i.e. you know why you are doing it right; finally you become unconsciously competent  you can do it without thinking.

I think I am between the 2nd and 3rd - sometimes the technique really feels "right" but when I try to repeat it, I tense up, concentrate too much on the move and it doesn't work.  It would be interesting to hear from senior grades if they can relate the above framework to their own development.


I think Icy's comments about hitting a target are valid ones.  Unless you begin to actually focus on impacting on a solid(ish) target you cannot get feedback on eg: how your wrist is angled, finish, kime, etc right through to the importance of stance and grounding on impact.  I am not suggesting we bring in boards ("boards do not hit back" [c ] B. Lee) but I think some impact work would be good to feedback "kime"

Lloydie