Topic: Karate Etiquette - Rei

[Ziska]

When in the Dojo, at the beginning of a lesson, we do a kneeling bow to Sensei, we first go down on the left knee then the right knee.(in our Dojo).
Now the dilema I have is that Sensei Kawasoe in his first video goes down right knee first, in the book "Official Karate" by David Mitchell on page 34 he states we should go down right knee first, yet in "Martial Arts" by Fay Goodman page 58 it shows the rei performed left knee first. Who is right and why?  

[Moley]

Hey Ziska, welcome to the forum !
Wow what a question to start off with. Such a simple sounding question but one that could take several pages to answer.
I'll try to keep it simple.
Going into Seiza depends on several factors ! Factors such as whether you are in a tea ceremony, a Samurai wearing a kimono, a swordsman in a hakama etc etc etc.
Basically for us martial artists (Karateka in Karategi) I would suggest, left knee down first, this keeps strong balance with the right jiku ashi as you go down, then right knee. No need to slap the hakama to the side as I-ai practicioners do. Neither do we hold on to our sword handle with the left hand.
 However we still do the Rei, Left hand down first, then right, Bow and then Right hand up first so as the right hand (Sword arm) is not occupied too long in the bowing process in case we are attacked.

Oss.

[Hades]

Ziska, an interesting point regarding the formal ‘bow’ or ‘seiza’ and the correct way of execution.

I had always been taught to kneel in a way which left my sword drawing hand free at all times, this is usually the right hand, therefore, the left knee would touch the floor first from the semi-kneeling position, then the right knee into ‘seiza’.  The left hand would then be placed on the floor followed by the right hand to ‘rei.  The right hand would then be raised back on to the thigh, followed by the left.  To stand, the right knee would first be lifted to the semi-kneeling position, followed by the left, allowing you able to attack and/or defend at all times.  

I thought that this was ‘universal’ and derived from the Japanese Samurai and Zen attitudes until I read your post, which started me thinking;

In Michael Finn’s book ‘Iaido, The way of the sword’ (1982) he describes the proper way of ‘seiza’ and ‘rei’ as I have done above, so too does Master Otake (Katori Shinto Ryu) in his study of Iaido in the book ‘The Way of the Warrior’ (1983) by Howard Reid and Michael Croucher.

For un-armed arts, this same method is described (in detail) in the ‘Aikido’ section of ‘Martial Arts of the Orient’ (1975) The Hamlyn Publishing Group Ltd.

At the 1987 J.K.A All Japan Championship (VHS), this same method of ‘seiza’ and ‘rei’ is again seen during the demonstrations by Asai Sensei and Tanaka Sensei.

Having studied the Kawasoe tape that you mentioned, indeed, Sensei does place his right knee down first; but, he places his left hand down first to bow, and removes his right hand first back to his thigh.  To stand, Sensei raises his right knee first from a semi-kneeling position followed by his left.

I can only wonder.

[Moley]

Dojo Kun.

If you had to write out a new set of "Standards/ Rules" similar to those in the Dojo Kun, which ones do you think are important for this day and age?

I'll start off ;



1. Hitotsu - Respect and look after your body.

[Jewels]

2. Respect and look after other bodies.

[Lloydie]

3. Hitotsu!  Seek to do the least harm to others

lloydie

[Ziska]

Ours is not to reason why,
Ours is just to Bassai Dai.

(or at least work towards it)  

[Azzy_Stealth]

4. Hitotsu! We all practice to improve our -geri (kicks)
               But doing kumite against Yondans -is Scary  

[Lloydie]

Guys, Guys, let's not run this into another limerick competition  

another (serious) suggestion:

Hitotsu!  Be honest in what you do

lloydie

[Moley]

Just been talking to Mike(Mona Books) Burton and he says that one of the things he is going to complain about in the meeting tomorrow is the Lack of etiquette by candidates at the last grading.
Any comments ? Did any of you feel that there was a disrespect before/during/after the grading ?

[Shari]

Yes I think Mike was right to say that there was a lack of respect in the grading. A lot of the juniors didn't bow when entering or leaving the dojo. Also messing about and takling while others were doing their grading. Running back and forth.

Also at training there are a few youngsters that need to be told over and over to listen and stop talking, I know that it can not be too sttict or the kids will leave in their droves then again  that may be a good thing only the ones that want to learn will still be there.

Why do we no longer say the dojo kun.
The ones that mean a lot to me are.
Hitots Doryoku no seishin o yashinau koto
Hitots Kekki no yu o ima shimuru koto.
I felt good saying them after a hard training session.

[dogberry]

I agree that there was a lack of etiquette at this months grading.
it was a good idea to have somewhere seperate to warm up/practice but this should have been away from the grading area.
A few times I had to go behind the curtain to tell people to keep quiet.
I got the impression that Sensei Kawasoe was also aware.

There was too much coming and going on the part of those waiting to grade with youngsters and adults walking across the eyeline of those grading.
Sensei Gwyn you often talk how it "annoys" you when people distract you.

The seating around the grading area was a good idea,it was reasonably comfortable and it also prevented the showing of the soles of the feet and other disrespectful positions.

HITOTS! REIGI O OMONSURO KOTO

I think that we missed the "pre grading" CHAT you give i.e "wee now, once your in you stay put".


Where will we be next time?

In the meeting on WEDNESDAY I think it prudent that rules are set up to avoid a similar situation in the future.

Positively though I thought that SEKI did extremely well and congratulate everyone on their acheivements.


DOGBERRY

[Moley]

Thank you all for your comments, They shall be relayed to the WTKF committee tonight.

Has anybody any comments on the standard this time ? Apparently there were only a handful of TEMPS (Nearly failed) in the whole grading. Seki got the lowest number of TEMPS, (only 2 I think.)
I know many were really disappointed from our club because they were not allowed to even attempt the grading. I had to explain to a great many (Especially parents) why these students were not ready. Many of them only had THREE stamps in their books since the last grading ! Others are noted for not listening or fooling about. Some even attempted to trick other instructors into giving them Grading cards even though they didn't know their Kata at all and I had already told them that they were not to grade. Notably four turned up the Monday before the Grading asking if they could have a grading form. (I hadn't seen them for two months)
Strangely, we haven't seen any of these people since the grading cards were handed in..Surely when told they weren't ready, the natural reaction is to get some more training done ?

Pretty soon a great deal of 1st Kyu's will ask to go for SHODAN.
What do you think the criteria should be ?

Re-Dojo Kun : Some of you may notice that I personally don't initiate it's meaningless "Chanting" any more ! (Sorry if I have odffended the few of you who say it and mean it)
There are several personal reasons for this and cannot elaborate here.Other instructors are free to initiate it. If people are serious about it and intend keeping it, then perhaps an up to date version for today's world in a language that makes it all clear would be preferable ?
Something along the lines of:
Seki Rules
1.Respect for yourself
2.Loyalty to your friends
3.Loyalty to the club
4.Try hard ALWAYS
Moley

[Lloydie]

leprechaun accent:<on> BeJaysus....sure tis great t'be back now in d'home ground <off>

Has anybody any comments on the standard this time ? Apparently there were only a handful of TEMPS (Nearly failed) in the whole grading. Seki got the lowest number of TEMPS, (only 2 I think.)

It was a bit strange being up on the "table" and watching, but it seemed to me that the temps were mainly the "usual suspects" ie had temps before.  Most noticeable was when we got to the mid-to-higher grades, some of the 3rd-1st kyus were struggling a bit to do their best.  I wonder if other clubs are experiencing the pressures from parents/students that Moley refers to?  

Pretty soon a great deal of 1st Kyu's will ask to go for SHODAN.
What do you think the criteria should be ?

 As one of those who will be eligible for testing for Shodan in the next 6 months, I think we should only test when: 1) we feel ready and 2) when our instructors feel we are ready; (2) should take priority over (1).

Re the Dojo Kun, personally, I liked it, although I am not sure how many of us really understood the meaning of these rules.    I like Moley's version of the Seki rules, they emphasise the "club/team" spirit which I think is very important.

good to be back


Lloydie

PS back to training next week - but don't tell Mrs Lloydie    

[Moley]

"The Boys are back inTown"

Nice to see you back Lloydie... Now that we have a full pack...We can now get down to serious business.....
BIG PLANS ON THE WAY  !

By The Way:

I notice that Azzy has changed his "LEGEND" to :
"Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you!
However, leave the limbs you've lost. They belong to me now. "
Hey AZZY changed to a bit of a MONSTER I see. O.K. I will bring my "Katana" on Monday night to test your skills !

I preferred the "Legend"

"Revenge is a dish best served cold!"
old Klingon saying

Moley (No more Mr Nice Guy)