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Author Topic: The Myth of Kata.............  (Read 1377 times)
JimmyTheHoover
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« on: October 10, 2008, 10:15:18 pm »

Folks I came up with the post below for another forum and thought it would be good to get your thoughts also.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


That got your attention now didn't it ?   Very Happy

Now for my point......

Anyone involved with the great Martial Art that is Karate-Do will no doubt be aware of the commonly expounded "Myth" that the early Shotokan (and probably other styles as well) Masters changed the Kata that they taught to their students in such a way as to alter certain moves or reverse sequences to obscure the "Deadly Secrets" that the Kata contained to ensure that only "worthy" students were taught the "Secrets" of their School/Ryu.

So far so good - so why do I say "Myth" ?

Quite simple really - is it really likely that all the later "Masters" in Shotokan (for example) are either :-

1) So "Unworthy" that they or their teachers were so "Unworthy" that they were not taught the "Secret" moves (e.g. Nakyama/Funakoshi)

or

2) They were taught the "Secret moves but decided to perpetuate this outdated "Tradition"

Well ?

Jim  Twisted Evil
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Dave J
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 08:24:52 pm »

Interesting topic Jim.

In my experience I have seen that many top masters do have a real grasp of the application side of kata. You will have experienced this training on the ITKF camps. Sensei Naito in particular would get the class to perform application to kata's in a practical manner rather than sticking to the regular embusen for example.

I think this has less to do with whether 'secrets' were passed on than the time modern karateka dedicate to the study of this stuff.Remember people didn't watch tv, play on their playstation etc in Funakoshi's time and it is likely that karateka would hang out together working these things out when not in the dojo.

I remember doing a full breakdown of Jitte like this a few years ago in Edinburgh .Sensei Naito went over the Kata in it's normal form first, then altered the body position ( Angles and Stances etc) for many of the blocking techniques, and got the class to work in partners applying realistic blocks and counters.This involved a lot more use of sabaki and shorter punches ( Ura Tsuki etc) than the 'basic' static application which many have experienced.

Whether or not this was handed down through Funakoshi / Nakayama lines as a standard is not so clear. I understand that Kata bunkai and bunkai omote are things which Sensei Naito and Sensei Shirai would practice and develop together quite a lot- similar to the old days.When I was in these classes I really got a feeling that the Sensei had a deep, inside out, kind of understanding of the kata and its applications.     

I think that this kind of study and research of the application side of the techniques is a form of natural progression for masters at that level, but there are probably only a few people who really understand the kata as deep as this.It is great that we in ITKF have the chance to experience this depth of understanding,even if only for a few hours.I reckon it depends on how much time you have to develop applications to the moves of the kata outside of the hours you already spend training ( After all we all have lives , tv's playstations etc...right ?! )

Another thing to remember is that the one of the strong points of JKA karate when it started to be spread around the world was the standardisation of techniques.This meant that the guy training under a JKA instructor in 1965 in South Africa was doing the same kata as taught in the JKA instructors class in Tokyo.The fact that Sensei Nakayama was smart enough to realise that he could not send individual instructors to all corners of the world doing different things may account for why they concentrated much more on getting the fundamental kata spot on rather than diversifying into too much bunkai which may have led to alterations in the standard form. This also contributed to the strength of JKA karate as an association up to the time of his death.

As for me, I would be happy if I could work out  how to do one gyaku-tzuki properly!! Laughing
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JimmyTheHoover
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 12:19:58 am »

Hi Dave - thanks for your most excellent post - pity I didn't ask ask about Kata Bunkai/oyo  Very Happy

What I mean by that remark is that I'm not talking about kata bunkai being kept hidden - I'm referring to the actual "form" of the kata allegedly having been changed by the instructors (perhaps to conceal "deadly applications"/bunkai).

I also remember some great bunkai sessions with Sensei Naito at Edinburgh and always enjoy it whenever any senior grade takes the time to look at this oft neglected (IMO) fundamental aspect of understanding the kata.

Jim

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JimmyTheHoover
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 03:27:47 pm »

FYI -another poster on another forum also seemed to think I must be referring to Bunkai....

http://www.martialartforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3633&p=49988#p49988

Jim
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Andyeilio
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2008, 07:15:27 pm »

FYI -another poster on another forum also seemed to think I must be referring to Bunkai....

http://www.martialartforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3633&p=49988#p49988

Jim

Registered for the forum, but they are all asleep, will have a look tommorow
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2008, 07:20:22 pm »

LOL - things are hotting up a bit about this discussion on the Shotokan way forum - albei mainly just beteween myself and Steve H.  Laughing

Jim
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2008, 08:04:56 pm »

LOL - things are hotting up a bit about this discussion on the Shotokan way forum - albei mainly just beteween myself and Steve H.  Laughing

Jim

Yes Jimmy, some twoing and froing!!! But no real commitment to discuss either, rather a lack of apparent understanding.

Is this question not oft debated??
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2008, 09:31:24 pm »

Obviously not since I seem to be the only plonker admitting to have read about the practice......  Confused
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2008, 09:34:20 pm »

Obviously not since I seem to be the only plonker admitting to have read about the practice......  Confused
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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