Topic: 24 Fighting Chickens

[Rogers]

24fightingchickens.com

I've just visited this website and read about the KUGB split - shocking stuff!!!!  

It seems that sensei Ohta, along with the JKA, have a complete disregard for the authority, ability or legitamacy of the grades of us 'foreign karateka'

The article on this website was particularly offensive when it stated that some Japanese consider us British to be the "bastard children of karate"      

Enoeda said that we were the 'best karate nation in the world'. One only has to look at the achievements of our top karateka at international and world competions to see that we are certainly capable at practising this martial art.

In todays world it is shocking to see that blind, uncultured racism is allowed to wreak havoc with peoples lives

So who is to blame? Did Enoeda not properly register his higher Dan graded karateka with the JKA? Did the JKA give Enoeda a friendly nod but in reality ignored the grades of his senior karateka?

When the JKA approved Ohta sensei to take over Enoeda, even though Ohta was a sixth dan when Andy Sherry was a 7th dan, they said that Ohta sensei was more 'socially acceptable' for the role. What did they mean by this?

Either way this has got me thinking . Are we at the Seki Ryu Zan affiliated with the JKA and if so who will take over Kawasoe when he passes away? Will a British karateka be allowed to take over the position?

Don't mean to worry anyone. I'm just a bit curious that's all.

Got a mean blister from tonights training!!!!! Gonna have to walk on my heels only all day tomorrow!!!!!!!

See you Wednesday

Rogers

[Moley]

The way it works:
The Seki Ryu Zan is a club not an association. We belong to the Welsh Traditional Karate Federation which is the Welsh branch of Kawasoe sensei's U.K.T.K.F.  There is no political connection at all to the J.K.A. or any other organisation. Kawasoe Sensei is our Chief Technical advisor and Grading examiner. Each dojo affiliates separately to the UKTKF. as does each individual member. Thankfully there are no political wranglings going on within our organisation. Come along to the next WTKF meeting (after the grading) and find out how it works.
As for the question of what happens to us after Kawasoe ? Well I'm sure Sensei has a great many years left before he hangs up his belt.(If he ever does) It will then be up to the WTKF membership to decide.

[Susan]

In todays world it is shocking to see that blind, uncultured racism is allowed to wreak havoc with peoples lives
Rogers

Well said  Clearly you're a man that believes in fairness and equality. So what are your views on the blind, uncultured sexism that is prevalent in the UKTKF? Don't you think we Westerners need to get our own house in order before accusing the Japs of discrimination?

[Moley]

Susan, go easy on the lad. He's new and ex-KUGB. So far he's only seen the fair, decent and equal way we treat women here in Wales. He doesn't know about the awful sexism that goes on in Scotland and the way you females (especially ones like yourself who want to mix it with the males)are treated over there.
P.S. I'm sure the English are the same.

[Susan]

I'm not having a go at him. I think he's right.

Rogers wrote:

who will take over Kawasoe when he passes away? Will a British karateka be allowed to take over the position?

Gwyn wrote:

Well I'm sure Sensei has a great many years left before he hangs up his belt.(If he ever does) It will then be up to the WTKF membership to decide.

Well Gwyn, according to KT's advertising blurb 30% of karateka are women. So I guess we can assume that there's a 1 in 3 chance of the non-sexist WTKF membership choosing a woman to take over from Sensei Kawasoe?

Yeh right, and pigs might fly! Thats what the JKA meant when they said Ohta was more socially acceptable. Most people don't want to see a Westerner heading up a traditional karate association any more than they want to see a women in the role.

A lot of people think that the Japanese are better at karate, have mystical powers, or some 'special' understanding of the ancient art (for ancient read what...50 years?). Most people also think that men are somehow better than women at karate - the very idea of men and women fighting each other is met with outrage by most people (by women as well as men). Of course, none of this stuff has any basis in reality, but when you're up against social convention there's no point trying to use reason or logic.

Discrimination is a very difficult thing to fight - you just end up driving it underground which makes it harder to deal with.

[Lloydie]

Susan wrote:

Well Gwyn, according to KT's advertising blurb 30% of karateka are women. So I guess we can assume that there's a 1 in 3 chance of the non-sexist WTKF membership choosing a woman to take over from Sensei Kawasoe? Yeh right, and pigs might fly!

If a female karateka of the technical skill, teaching ability, administrative flair and pedigree (by pedigree I mean karate "track record" here - and not in the racist/sexist etc sense) was willing and available to take over, then YES, she would get my vote over a less able male contender.  So if this comes to be, you'd better get that broom ready to sweep the nesting porkers off your roof, Susan  

 

Most people also think that men are somehow better than women at karate - the very idea of men and women fighting each other is met with outrage by most people

If by "somehow better than women at karate" you mean fighting, then there is certainly a case for stating that men will have on average a better outcome.  This is not sexist, in the negative, prejudical sense, but simply a matter of biology.  To deny that all other things (apart from biology) being equal on average a man will defeat a woman in combat is simply not logical.  Men are, on average, better physically equipped in physical sports than women.  There are exceptions, of course, but these ARE exceptions not the "rule"

regards

lloydie

[Susan]

If a female karateka of the technical skill, teaching ability, administrative flair and pedigree (by pedigree I mean karate "track record" here - and not in the racist/sexist etc sense) was willing and available to take over, then YES, she would get my vote over a less able male contender.  

And are there any female karateka that fit that description in the WTKF? And if not, any thoughts as to why? Could you really see yourself backing someone that's not considered competent enough to earn their rank at a grading? Do you really think someone's going to have any credibility as an instructor when they're banned from even competing against 60% of karateka, supposedly on grounds of incompetence. And just where do you think they're going to aquire this track record - it's certainly not going to be allowed to happen publicly.

If by "somehow better than women at karate" you mean fighting, then there is certainly a case for stating that men will have on average a better outcome.  This is not sexist, in the negative, prejudical sense, but simply a matter of biology.  To deny that all other things (apart from biology) being equal on average a man will defeat a woman in combat is simply not logical.  Men are, on average, better physically equipped in physical sports than women.

It's also a matter of biology that the average strong, fit, six footer is better equipped for fighting than the average ten stone weakling. That's not considered grounds to barr the little guy from entry into competition or from a fair fight at a grading - just ask your average (5ft 2in, 9 stone) Jap.

Also, you need to consider that it's rare that all other things are equal. After just three short years of half hearted training any male - regardless of size, age, talent, commitment, physical condition, technical ability - is permitted to enter the main kumite event at competition and to fight at gradings. A strong, fit women that trains regularly, has years of experience behind her and a proven track record when it comes to mixed gender in-club kumite isn't allowed to enter purely on the grounds of gender.

Yes, the strongest men will always be stronger than the strongest women. But they'll also always be stronger than 99.9% of men. I'm not underestimating the abilities of people like Alan Hepburn and colin McLaren  - I think most women would stand very little chance of beating them (perhaps some of the six foot Norweigian women might get a look in). But I get a bit sick of all other men jumping on the band wagon and somehow thinking that because they're the same gender that they're in the same league as these guys. They're not.

In practically any sport you can think of, Women at the top of their sport are streets ahead of the average man. Just because they're unlikely to beat the elite men why should they be banned from competing altogether? If practice of basing eligibility to enter competion on liklihood of winning was imposed on men too, then there'd be about three people eligible to enter the UKTKF championships.

As Rogers already pointed out, in todays world it is shocking to see that blind, uncultured discrimination is allowed to wreak havoc with peoples lives. Good for you Rogers - we need more people like you speaking out against this kind of thing.  

[Lloydie]

Could you really see yourself backing someone that's not considered competent enough to earn their rank at a grading?

Not if the assessment of competence was a fair one.  And in this I believe is the crux of the matter, ie who determines competence?.  I am not familiar with the institutional bias that you allude to in terms of gender and I have certainly not seen it in the WTKF.  I can only state my own opinion that I would have no problem with voting for a female karateka.

Do you really think someone's going to have any       credibility as an instructor when they're banned from even competing against 60% of karateka, supposedly on grounds of incompetence. And just where do you think they're going to aquire this track record - it's certainly not going to be allowed to happen publicly.

MY choice would not be based simply on competition success - I did not mention it in my criteria - I sympathise totally with your frustration in being denied competitive opportunities, but if you stepped forward as a potential successor, your competitive record would not be as important to me as the other criteria I listed.  In fact, for me, your competitive record would likely figure low down in relation to your technical skills and ability to impart them to others.

It's also a matter of biology that the average strong, fit, six footer is better equipped for fighting than the average ten stone weakling. That's not considered grounds to barr the little guy from  entry into competition or from a fair fight at a grading - just ask your average (5ft 2in, 9 stone) Jap.

Good point, Susan.  But I was not addressing the matter of competition entry, I was responding to your statement that "Most people also think that men are somehow better than women at karate - the very idea of men and women fighting each other is met with outrage by most people" .  Some competitive martial arts have weight divisions to attempt to overcome the excellent points you make in regard to weight etc.  I would have no problems with such a "equalisation" of competitive division.  In such a scenario, I would have no problem with co-ed competition.

In practically any sport you can think of, Women at the top of their sport are streets ahead of the average man

Agreed.  However, the key variable here is "top of their sport vs average" not gender. ie "In practically any sport you can think of, people at the top of their sport are streets ahead of the average person".

regards

Lloydie

[Huw]

In practically any sport you can think of, Women at the top of their sport are streets ahead of the average man. Just because they're unlikely to beat the elite men why should they be banned from competing altogether? If practice of basing eligibility to enter competion on liklihood of winning was imposed on men too, then there'd be about three people eligible to enter the UKTKF championships.

I agree with you completely on Susan. Out of interest what, if any, segregation would you impose on kumite competition ? Height ? Weight ?

The smallest adult member of Seki is "almost 4'11" (her words), to have her in kumite competition against a six footer (any gender) would be a bit of a joke as the disparity in reach, stride, etc is just too much (in my view anyway). Is there in your view a sensible way of segregating competitors within kumite ?

As for kata, is there any reason to have any segregation at all apart from experience (i.e. belt ranges) ? I personally can't think of any good reason to segregate the sexes for kata.

[Susan]

I am not familiar with the institutional bias that you allude to in terms of gender and I have certainly not seen it in the WTKF.

Well if the women in the WTKF are getting treated fairly I want to know about it. Perhaps the WTKF lead will help to bring the rest of the organisation into the 21st century

The official line in the UKTKF prohibits:

Women fighting men at Dan gradings (which, because of numbers sometimes means they don't get to fight at all).
Women competing against men in kumite competition (and kata for that matter),
And a more recent introduction, women training with men at national courses (I'm refering to the 3rd Dan and above class at the last Edinburgh course here).
[/list:u]

This can only have a detremental effect on:

a) The confidence of female karateka, and concequently their ability to fulfill their potential.
b) The perceived ability of women in karate, and concequently their 'status' in the organisation. (How do you think beginners interpret this attitude towards female karateka? And how can the female karateka set the record straight if they're never allowed to compete publicly? What effect does it have on the goals that young girls in karate set for themselves?)
c) The numbers of women at a high level in karate - some women just won't put up with the discrimination and go elsewhere.
[/list:u]

This policy is completely out of line with training at club level (at my club anyway). For kumite practice we pair up with people of similar experience, ability and size. At 5ft 7 and 75kg I'm very rarely matched up with other women. The only people I feel physically overwhelmed by are Colin & Alan (6ft+ UK Kumite Champions). Despite your theories I can honestly say that I HAVEN'T found many men to be the superior biological specimins that you claim them to be. Some people are stronger, some faster, some more flexible....but believe me men do not hold all the trump cards.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people prepared to go to great lengths to perpetuate the myth.

Agreed. However, the key variable here is "top of their sport vs average" not gender. ie "In practically any sport you can think of, people at the top of their sport are streets ahead of the average person".

I don't see what you're getting at here. The whole point is, segregation according to gender is totally unjustified. A whole group of UKTKF members are barred from competition, fair gradings, and more recently participation in normal training, when many of them are capable of beating a high percentage of the people that are allowed to participate (and have proven this to be the case repeatedly in club training). In my book that's blatent discrimination.

As far as competition is concerned, I agree segration according to size would be a lot fairer, but most people don't want it (including me) because they'd rather pit their wits against the best and loose than have some 'made up' noddy category invented for them so they can get a plastic medal.

[Susan]

I agree with you completely on Susan. Out of interest what, if any, segregation would you impose on kumite competition ? Height ? Weight ?

The smallest adult member of Seki is "almost 4'11" (her words), to have her in kumite competition against a six footer (any gender) would be a bit of a joke as the disparity in reach, stride, etc is just too much (in my view anyway). Is there in your view a sensible way of segregating competitors within kumite ?

As for kata, is there any reason to have any segregation at all apart from experience (i.e. belt ranges) ? I personally can't think of any good reason to segregate the sexes for kata.

Huw - I agree that huge size differences seem impossible to overcome. At 5ft 7ins I'm kinda middle of the range, yet I still appreciate the problems people at either end of the range must have - especially against each other.  

For an absolute level playing field I think weight categories - but then again strength and weight isn't the problem...it's reach. So perhaps height categories are more important.

But as I said in my previous post I think a lot of people are more motivated by overcoming obsticles and disadvantages than they are in winning. I suppose the fairest approach would be weight or height categories (and even gender if you must) to establish 'best of class' AND an open competition where anyone can enter. The trouble is, the big guys wouldn't enter an open competition - why risk getting your butt kicked by a small guy or a women when if you do nothing everyone assumes you're the best?

Yup, I agree. It's not just separate categories for kumite competion that's crazy. I see no reason at all for having separate categories for men and women's kata competition. Do judges look for the same qualities in both categories...Gwyn?

[Lloydie]

Well if the women in the WTKF are getting treated fairly I want to know about it. Perhaps the WTKF lead will help to bring the rest of the organisation into the 21st century  

We're ahead of our time on many aspects  

Seriously, Susan, I was not aware of the 3rd dan "rule" at Edinburgh - I certainly cannot see any justification for it from what you have recounted and I would certainly not condone it.

I think we differ on our view of mixed kumite - perhaps for different reasons, but I cannot see any real justification for segregation in kata, apart from perhaps concern if the men/women (strike out one according to your views people) won everything.  That said, I think it would be great if a female won a "mixed" kata comp.

Despite your theories I can honestly say that I HAVEN'T found many men to be the superior biological specimins that you claim them to be

Perhaps you have just met the wrong men  
I think if open the Guinness book of records and look at track and field events, then compare times/distances/heights etc etc achieved by elite men and women athletes we could objectively state that men have a superior biological advantage over women.  There is nothing sexist in this statement, it is simply biology.  Similarly, women have better multi-tasking cognitive abilites overall, than men.  Such is life.

I don't see what you're getting at here

Top vs average.  ie someone at the top of anything will be superior to someone who is average, by definition.  

I don't think weight catagorisation is a "noddy" event.  In boxing, it would be outrageous to pit a bantemweight against a heavyweight and expect any other outcome than a few rounds of chasing followed by catch-up and a 10 count.  However, as you point out, there already is catagorisation (Kyu/Dan Men/Women) but not for reasons of age/weight etc so perhaps the whole system requires a re-think?

regards

Lloydie

[Susan]

I think if open the Guinness book of records and look at track and field events, then compare times/distances/heights etc etc achieved by elite men and women athletes we could objectively state that men have a superior biological advantage over women.  There is nothing sexist in this statement, it is simply biology.

You're logic is flawed. Just because *some* men have achieved better results in sport than their female counterparts you can't conclude that women are 'biologically inferior' to men.

How many men can run a mile in 4 minutes 12 seconds? Can you? I suspect not. But a women has done it so I guess by your reasoning that makes you 'genetically inferior' to women and therefore inelligible to enter kumite competition against men? Which I think illustrates my point. When it comes to physical ability, attempts to categorise according to gender are artificial and misleading.

Some races dominate certain sports - I can think of plenty of events where white people don't get a look in. Should we conclude that white people are 'genetically inferior'? Should international karate competition (or in fact all international sport) be banned on the basis that some races are 'genetically superior' to others? There is nothing racist in this statement, it is simply biology.

How about we stop trying to create artificial categorisations and let people stand on their own two feet instead of hiding behind labels.

So in karate how do you assess how good people are at fighting?  You let them compete against each other and see who wins. Survival of the fittest.

And now perhaps it becomes clear why so many people have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.  

Incedently Dave, if you feel that women are not up to competing against men because of 'genetic inferiority' do you think it's fair that they should be allowed to pass Dan gradings the same as the guys. Think about it. In a few months you could be a black belt and eligible to enter the main kumite category. An opportunity that's denied to senior women in the organisation. Are you saying that you think in the short time you've been training you'll be a more competent fighter than 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th Dan women with years of experience? Do you think Sensei Kawasoe was wrong to award women their ranks if they aren't up to the task?

[Lloydie]

You're logic is flawed. Just because *some* men have achieved better results in sport than their  female counterparts you can't conclude that women are 'biologically inferior' to men.  How many men can run a mile in 4 minutes 12 seconds? Can you? I suspect not. But a women has done it <snip>

Susan, you are extrapolating from the individual to the general populace, this is a very flawed methodology.  I was quoting the facts as they stand.  ie in the track and field events men achieve better results than women.  In this respect they are "biologically inferior" as a comparative group.  There is no other explanation other than the fact that men are stronger, faster, can jump higher and longer etc etc etc.  This is a biological difference between men and women.  Your point about the 4min 12 second mile is irrelevant to the discussion - can you lift over 470 Kg?  NO?  Well a man has done it, so I'll get out on the track and you start pumping big iron.

I don't like discrimination against females any more than you do Susan.  Where we can do something about the discrimination you stated at Edinburgh, I believe we should do something.  Where biological factors exist that we cannot change (although I believe the old USSR/GDR athletes had a go ) I think we have to accept them.

regards

Lloydie

[Susan]

Susan, you are extrapolating from the individual to the general populace, this is a very flawed methodology.  I was quoting the facts as they stand.  ie in the track and field events men achieve better results than women.  In this respect they are "biologically inferior" as a comparative group.  

There is no other explanation other than the fact that men are stronger, faster, can jump higher and longer etc etc etc.  

lloydie

No - YOU are extrpoloating from the individual to the general populace. In track and field events SOME men achieve better results than women. You have somehow concluded from that that women are physically inferior to men - even though it's proven that a large proportion of women would beat a large proportion of men.

Why are you determined to categories men and women in sport (and more specifically karate) and make comparisons between them as groups when there is so much overlap?

Have a read at this article :

http://www.undelete.org/WHM/WHM07.html

It's about the first woman to run in the Boston marathon in 1966. She had to run disguised as a man because officials deemed that women weren't physically capable of running a marathon.

She ran the Boston Marathon in an unoficial time of 3:12.2 and beat two-thirds of the men.

The following year Katherine Switzer got a number by pretending to be a man. While racing she was recognized as a girl and officials chased her trying to pull off her number.  Anyway, apparantly  there's a famous photo of the attempts by officials to remove her number. But she got her just deserts - she was suspended from the Amateur Athletic Union for "running without a chaperon!"

As late as 1972 the Olympics would not allow women to run further than 1,500 meters.

Oh, and of course, from a different source - 1916 Helen Hildreth, the Lady Pugilist, was having the best of it in a mixed fight with Johnny Atkinson, when police and boxing commissioner Fred Wenck jumped into the rings and ordered the fight stopped.

You look back at this stuff with disbelief - but it won't be long before people are shocked by the idea that women used to be prevented from competing against men in karate competition. It's all down to education.