Topic: 24 Fighting Chickens

[Susan]

Don't get me wrong the winner of the female kata was wonderful to watch - but was it KATA of karate balet ?

Huw - that's very unfair on the ladies kata champ. This question is always raised about kata. I've heard some of the guys complaining 'cos they were 'doing the business' while others were just posing.

If memory serves, Gary and the female winner did the same kata in the final - but the difference in performance made them look totally different. To ignore power as part of female kata would seem to me to be competely wrong.

I guess that if someone is small and light they can't be expected to generate masses of power. The important thing is that they use propper body dynamics and make good use of what they've got. I don't think that it's wrong to make allowances for this in the scoring. Let's face it, if ability to do damage was important it would be big guys winning the male kata competition. Little guys like wee Garry and wee Graeme always do best.

It's no different from what happens in kyu grade competition where the judges make allowances for lack of skill and experience.

[Huw]

Fair comment Susan on your last points, as I've pointed out through out my postings my first experience of 'competition' karate was last Saturday. I am a serious 'newbie' to this. But in light of what you sat I guess I should hang up my kata boots right now .....

But in my defence I don't think I'm alone in my puzzlement at the result of the female kata. Whilst watching I was in the middle of a mixed bunch - English, Scots, male, female - and everybody commented on the lack of kime. I'd simply like to know if the marking system is changed for women.

H

[Lloydie]

It's no different from what happens in kyu grade competition where the judges make allowances for lack of skill and experience.

Given your experiences of discrimination Susan, do you suspect that "allowances" are made for females?  I would find such practices, at the least inappropriate, in competion.


Lloydie

[Susan]

I'm not saying that allowances are made for women. I'm saying that in marking, allowances are made for smaller people at all levels. Over and above this, skill and experience is taken into account at kyu grade level.

I see no reason to make allowances specifically for women - except perhaps at kyu grade level as women and older people are often starting from a disadvantage.

It's use of body dynamics that counts - not how much power you produce. Someone big and strong with no training at all could produce a considerable amount of power. That's not karate - it's just throwing your weight about. As I say, if it just came down to brute force then big guys would win every time, but in kata it's frequently below average sized people like wee Garry and Graeme that do best. (Hey, I guess i'm saying it pays to be biologically inferior for kata )

The same thing happens in kumite. A small guy would never do much damage with a chudan punch against a big bruiser. So strictly speaking, chudan punches should never score against a considerably bigger opponent. But they do if they're technically correct - ie if the small guy has produced enough power relative to his strength/size. Conversely, a big guy could quite eaily deck a smaller person without any technique at all. But it wouldn't (or shouldn't) score in competition.

Do you even know what power looks like? What looks strongest is often very weak in reality. Typical 'Kyu grade kime' looks impressive, but it's actually counter productive.

I can't comment on the peformance of the UKTKF kata champion. I didn't see it. You saw how upset wee Graeme got at the merest suggestion that someone might have preferred her performance to his - you certainly back peddled fast enough when he challenged you (top marks for agility by the way). I think it's reasonable to assume that she might be a little hurt at having her performance ripped to shreds and the validity of her title questioned. Why not just congratulate her?

I think you're starting to see now why direct competition is so important. Without it there will always be these doubts raised over womens' abilities in karate.

[Huw]

You saw how upset wee Graeme got at the merest suggestion that someone might have preferred her performance to his - you certainly back peddled fast enough when he challenged you (top marks for agility by the way).

I prefer to think of it as a niffty sabaki to the side

I don't think I've ever questioned the ability of the female kata winner - she was fantastic to watch. In fact all the kata finalists were brilliant - I can only dream of persuading my fat, creaking body to perform with such grace. My questions are really about how the kata comp was judged. Please don't interpret my questions as implied criticism, I am simply curious as to how the system works. Wendy performed her kata with visible power (i.e. I wouldn't want to be in the way of her punches), the winner performed her kata in a completely different way. What I'd like to know is how judges approach marking such different interpretations.

but in kata it's frequently below average sized people like wee Garry and Graeme that do best. (Hey, I guess i'm saying it pays to be biologically inferior for kata )

Their none to shabby at kumite either. My biological superiority is really getting me down today      

[Huw]

[Graeme McLaren]

Susan, I've been reading your comments for some time and frankly I'm bored with you trying to get this massive chip off your shoulder!

You talk about getting moved away from men in courses and classes. What you really mean is that you you get moved away from Paul because he is the only person you seem to spar with!!

The fact of the matter is that you try to draw support from the rest of the women in the association when really these are the people YOU, not the males, have most contempt for. If you respected them then why do you fail to turn up for any competetions? Too easy for you? Tell you what Susan, you start competing in the female categories and then we'll have an idea if your'e good enough to fight against men!

Another point. Don't have a go at Garry and I, whether in jest or otherwise! Show a bit of respect for people, after all, you do train in traditional Karate. This behaviour comes from the fact that you really are not good enough at Karate and therefore you try to imagine other people are at your level! We are not at your level and never will be, don't forget that.

[Susan]

Graeme, are you incapable of listening to a different point of view from your own without throwing a tantrum and resorting to bitchy, personal attacks? You seem to make a habit of this.

I don't have contempt for other women in the organisation - if you'd really been reading this thread you'd see I've been supportive of them. Competition isn't my main concern - it's just the thing that others are choosing to focus on. Mostly (as i've said already), I object to not being able to fight my peers (the males) at gradings, and being split up from male partners on courses (no, not just Paul). Many men think that women are less able karateka (as you've read on this thread). I don't think this is true, and I don't think opinions will change while women are segragated in this way. Some are happy with the situation - fine. I don't want to spoil anything for them. Others, including me, are not.

Respect? You mean like this:

Obviously a good Kata should contain all of the above and not just the form aspect which, of course, was the only one present in the Kata performed by the Women's winner. So therefore I assume that you think that a good Kata consists of going through various techniques and a couple of stances.

What exactly have I said to have a go at you or Garry? I haven't said *anything* about you personally or your performance. I think you're imagining things. If you're referring to the 'biologically inferior' remark, then if you'd read the rest of the thread you'd realise that was sarcasm - others have been suggesting that smaller people are bioloically inferior and less competent at karate. I'm making the point that two smaller than average guys came first and second in the UK Championships, disproving this theory.

Now calm down, and stop taking yourself so seriously. It's just a bit of fun.

[Susan]

I don't think I've ever questioned the ability of the female kata winner - she was fantastic to watch. In fact all the kata finalists were brilliant - I can only dream of persuading my fat, creaking body to perform with such grace. My questions are really about how the kata comp was judged. Please don't interpret my questions as implied criticism, I am simply curious as to how the system works. Wendy performed her kata with visible power (i.e. I wouldn't want to be in the way of her punches), the winner performed her kata in a completely different way. What I'd like to know is how judges approach marking such different interpretations.

I *don't think* women are penalised for showing power in kata. I haven't watched competition in years, but I remember one year out of the women that took the first three places one was just plain good & strong (Tamara), one was weaker yet elegant, and technically very good - nice to watch (perhaps like this year's champion?), and the other was an absolute bruiser - her technique didn't even look that good but she was powerful, and really looked as if she meant business. I remember their scores being very close. So I guess there's no one correct way to do kata.

Somewhere I've got a clip of a woman doing Unsu, She's not from our association - a Japanese woman I think. It's the best kata performance i've EVER seen (and i'm not usually impressed by kata). I'll try and find it and post it up.

[admin]

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

And so is this thread ..