Time To Stop Polishing The Stone And Start Throwing ?

[JimmyTheHoover]

Guys'n'Gals - I've posted this recently on a few other MA Forums I haunt and wondered what you fols have to say....

<SNIP>


O.K. - I practice a "supposedly" - "Traditional" style of Shotokan Karate.

I've been "doing this" for about 15 years now in total. (Currently 52 BTW and started training in 1984 - so had a ten year "Sabbatical" while raising our Family)

I'm currently a Sandan who never much "worried" about his next grading and just enjoyed his training.

Over the period I've been involved with Karate I've been "pretty much O.K." with "the Three K's Regime".

In addition to the "Physical" aspect of Karate I've always been an avid reader of Karate related books and online information - irrespective of "style".

For some reason I've always had the impression that one aspect of "Traditional" Karate has been the pursuit of excellence/perfect-form and to that end I've spent a fair amount of time looking at my performannce of basic techniques and trying to break them down and analyse their component parts with a view to incrementally improving my ability to perform those techniques.

However I've now started to question the "relative benefits" of refining the techniques beyond a certain point with respect to the eventual benefit in terms of making my technique more effective.

So - back to the post "Topic Title".....

....Do we sometimes lose sight of the true goal of a MA - "fighting ability" (IMHO-if not the main reason certainly a primary goal) - and spend an innordinate amount of time in the Dojo workling on improving the ability to deliver a "Perfect Technique" at the expense of training in the drills that would improve our ability to "be in a position to deliver" an "80% Perfect Technique" -when the Sh!t Hits the Fan ?

Over to you.....

Jim

[Andyeilio]

Jimmy,

I cannot answer this of course, but I would like to ask a question, maybe just start the ball rolling;

If I remember correctly, you have asked and (the forum) has discussed the finishing punch, one punch, ippon as it were, rather than using a number of techniques, your question here seems similar (to me anyway) although not identical, does my memory serve well? (probably not!)

I also seem to remember that we (the forum) have in the past discussed the potential advantages/disadvantages of learning different forms, and also, exactly how many different techniques are really necessary in a fight, not many as I recall.

Another question, not sure if its the last yet, do you remember the set of DVD's you posted in return for Seneis's DVD set? One of them was a bouncer going through self defence techniques using a pub bar as a setting, the DVD lasted I don't know, maybe 30 mins, it wouldnt take long to learn these techniques to get them 80% ok, so is learning karate primarily about fighting, or is it one of many benefits?

I do learn to hopefully improve my ability to knock someone out if necessary, but if I wanted to just do that, well, I would take up boxing maybe, or join London "firm" anyone watched green street? My son introduced me to one and two the other day "shut up you mag"

But I also learn to keep fit, meet interesting people, increase strength, flexibility, patience, reduce the potential fear of confrontation, learn self control.................. this isn't exhaustive, I am just blurting this out.

So should we learn several forms? Theres the chasing two rabbits thing, but what if you achieved Shodan and had the time to start a new MA alongside improving the first? would this help?

I would like in time to develop skills in groundwork, and breaking/locking, I would also love to learn to use a sword, but have no definite plans at the moment.

So if there are few techniques needed to defend yourself, if that's only what you want to learn, why not spend time on getting them 100% right, what good is 80% you get mugged 5 times and die once????? or if your out with your family, get in trouble but cant help? thats one of my big fears, probabally every parents.

I guess it depends on what you want from your MA, whats your trade, are you a professional bouncer? are you Dalton? or are you an academic who wants to learn all about a MA, its history/origins future?

Also, why do you question the authenticity of the JKA way? you say supposedly traditional?

[JimmyTheHoover]

Hi Andy - thanks for kicking off the discussion 

O.K. - lets get one thing straight first of all - in my post I ONLY suggested that in my opinion ONE of the main reasons for practicing karate is to learn to fight or defend oneself.

I recognise that many/most people take up a MA for a variety of reasons such as fitness/defence/socialising etc. and I'm one of them and I acknowledge that I get many benefits from my constant practice of Shotokan Karate.

I've even admitted that I've "succumbed" to the lure of "polishing the stone" - for it's own sake.

However what the main thrust of my post is really about - and perhaps it's my fault for not making it clearer - is that after a "certain point" there will be diminishing returns (in effectiveness) of concentrating on incremetally improving one's basic technique.

I.E. it could be that you've reached a point where Todome - or "Finishing Blow" is already "good enough" to be lethal if you can create the right opportunity.

It's about the "balance" of the type of training that a "typical" Dojo session places on Kihon/Kata/Kumite. Hell even if you're lucky enough to be in a club that practices Kumite drills for one third of EVERY class you could make the case that the third vthat's also spent EVERY class would be better spent on developing other areas of Karate to improve OVERALL effectiveness - one's ability to create the openings to finish the fight or perhaps more Kata Bunkai etc.

Of course I'm talking pririmarily about Senior Grades Training - definitely Nidan and above.

Regarding the other points - yes the SD video of Baz Rutten was great and if you recollect one of the key points I made about it was that how many Kata sequences and applications you could see in the sessions.

Oh - and regarding the "allegedly Traditional" - that's easy - "Real" Traditional karate is Okinawan based and the style that Shotokan has become bears little resemblance (IMO) to it - and also dunno about you but I'm not affilliated to a JKA Org.

Your points about learning breaks/locks/groundwork etc. actually reinforces my point - these all exist in Karate Kata but we just don't seem to find/spend the (Dojo) time working with them.

Hope this clarifies things a little for you Andy - and BTW your opinion is as valid as anyones - this is not a "skill thing" 

Jim

[Andyeilio]

Hi Jimmy,

I think your clarification of when this question applies reinforces what I thought/feel about the pros and cons of trying different MA's.

I still think it depends on what you want to get out of it, and what your ultimate goal is.

So what do you think?

[JimmyTheHoover]

Hi Jimmy,

I think your clarification of when this question applies reinforces what I thought/feel about the pros and cons of trying different MA's.

I still think it depends on what you want to get out of it, and what your ultimate goal is.

So what do you think?

...about what ? (I thought I'd Already Told You if it was in your last post ?) - and I'm not talking about trying differnet MA's.... son't need to they are all already "in" Karate....

[Moley]

I understand everything Jimmy...
So

Who are you gonna ( or want to ) throw the polished stone at ?

[JimmyTheHoover]

I understand everything Jimmy...
So

Who are you gonna ( or want to ) throw the polished stone at ?

Well it's not really about "who" Moley is it ?

It's more about having the "ability" to "throw" it and hit "them" effectively should the need arise.

A lot of the time I'm gonna be perfectly happy with the "ston" sitting on it's little display stand enjoying the beauty of its appearance while knowing how deadly it will be if I ever need to "throw it.

Jim

[Moley]

Believe me Jim That little stone is more than you'll ever need.
In fact if you could see what that little stone can do !...you would throw it away afraid of using it.
The beauty of it all is that whilst polishing that little stone you have also learned (or grown so old so that you can use) other skills, skills that you can use to take down targets without destroying them with the stone. ( Come on son, you don't really wanna beat the shit outa this poor f..er. Just come along and we can get you a taxi home.).. Seen Dave Lloyd do it loadsa times.
Problem is... you have a polished stone
and
you wanna see how good it is.
I'm sure you know a lot of places to go and test it... But
Do you want to ?
Really ?

[Captain Morgan]

Just going to be a observation post just siting on the sidelines looking at the discussion unfold.  - The symbolism of the polished stone is amazing, really deep .

Adding to the post / Diffrent stones reprecent diffrent styles. To have a stone skip on the surface of the pond one wouldn't use a big round stone, same for the use of building a stone wall one wouldn't use a smooth flat stone. Each stone ( style ) has its place in existence and for its uses - All stones can be thrown and if its been siting there on its silk pillow looking spectacular without being thrown before does the thrower know at how much force to throw the stone, for it to create the disired effect or does the stone set loose from the throwers hand spinning uncontrollably and hitting the target without accuracy or restraint. How much polishing is needed = how much dedication for the quest of enlightenment the thrower possesses. this makes to much of an effect and insted of setting the thrower in safety it places him/her in a even more dangerous place.

This is the understanding i have received form this piece post.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Moley - this is starting to sound like an early episode of Kung-Fu..... "when you can take the stone from my hand grasshopper...."  

...and lets get things straight Moley - YOU might have a TIny little Stone but mine is a great big Rock mate  

But back to your points - it's definitely not that I want to chuck my shiny stone around - been there done that when it was bigger and rougher. It's more to do with wanting that rough stone to have as many shiny facets to make it even more beautiful when the light shines on it and then eventually it completes the circle and beocomes a perfect sphere.

Jim

EDIT: ...which when thrown...... 

[Moley]

You knew the answer all along Jimmy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASY7Lj5GPQ

[JimmyTheHoover]

You knew the answer all along Jimmy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASY7Lj5GPQ

Yes - in that case it's the questions I need to be asking that's the problem Moley - everyone knows the answer is "42"

Jim

[jonsey]

interesting discussion with pelenty of facets....

"polishing the stone" - going over you basics time and time again to get them inch perfect, this is the core of any martial art and one of the most important parts of its practical application, there was a WC instructor who once said that when in a fight your technique is going to go out of the window you will preform it at only 70% of your best if you are lucky - so the more the stone is polished the better it is when used....but it is naturaly that at some point you will get dimminishing returns on everything in life. but polishing the stone can be enjoyable as well, so it comes down - are you after going out to crack heads, or to enjoy yourself, if you find that polishing is no longer fun for you - you should examine the current training and see where you can imrpove it to rectify the issue

sayign that though, if practical application appeals to you - then you must learn how to use the stone, this is a different aspect on your training which can be done the same time, it is not mutialey exclusive from refining your technique - polishing the stone will give the tools, free "sparring" or kumite will teach you how to use them (this is something i used to do a lot of - and do miss), Yip Man was rumored to tell his senior pupils to go out and fight at least once a day to learn how to use their skills (this included a youn jun fan who would latter be known as Bruce Lee)

Different style - there are benefits and drawbacks to cross training, the major draw back is the fact you are chasing 2 rabbits - though i have been training shotokan for 5 months now i have 15 yrs of expirience in multiple styles (mainly the changes have been forced by circumstances rather than choice).....and its always in the first yr of a new style you feel the main draw back of cross training,  fighting your own reflexes - the main obstacale i feel at the moment in my shotokan training especialy in the set kumitae is im not fighting my oponent, i am fighting myself - especialy against more threatening punches which make me react - i have to force myself to do karate and not to drop into things i am more familiar with (which has happned once or twice), it can be a source of great fustration for me at times, but it also a challenge im relishing- if different styles interest a person it can be good to do, but the draw back is the fact your stone will never be that polished - you will have more options available to you, but the tools set will be duller and less refined.

at the end of the day, the answer to the question will be "different strokes for different folkes" it all depends on what you are looking for, every ones journey down the road of MA training is different and it is up to the person to walk it as they see fit, personaly its always been the development within MA which appeals to me, there is always so much to learn and to perfect i can be happy spending hours just correcting a slight error in a punch or kick - then spending hours more learnign to use that punch or kick, if you want to learn how to use the stone you have polished - focus your training on that area, if you want to polish it more - go for it, if you want to pick up different stones - the choices are out there, at the end of the day your development in martial arts, wether it is traditional japanease, chinese, martian or the lost fighting styles of the fraggles -  lies within you, follow your gut and you will find what you seek.