Author Topic: How "SACRED" are Kata ?  (Read 4196 times)

Offline Moley

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« on: March 17, 2004, 02:25:58 PM »
To keep a traditional style alive it is necessary to practice the Kata as handed down throught that traditional style's history. Lately we have been playing about :P with kata, merely to add interest and excitement when practicing kicks. Should we do this ? What if someone takes us seriously and starts teaching KihonGeri, KihonYoko and KihonMawash as Bonafide TRADITIONAL Shotokan Kata ?

1. Is there something wrong with doing this ?
2. Do they exist already as part of OUR TRADITIONAL STYLE ?
3. How do we know it hasn't been done already to existing kata ?
4. When does a style become traditional?
5. Does it matter ?

 :?:
Cryf oedd calon hen y glas glogwyni,
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Chwyddodd gyfoeth gwr yr aur a'r faenol,
O'i enillion prin a'i amal gur.

Offline Huw

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2004, 10:28:57 PM »
From the little I've learnt over the past two and a half years it seems that katas have been changed over the years anyway .... kihon kata itself is a pretty recent invention. I guess many of the other katas have also been modified to reflect changes in techniques such as nukite.

A few 'new' katas would be welcome I reckon - not kihon geri etc. (my hips and knees will never survive), but something showing the same level of thought and inventiveness as some of the katas we practise day by day.
The hunter that chases two rabbits catches neither one.

Offline Mole Bach

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Re: How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2004, 11:29:10 PM »
Quote from: Moley

1. Is there something wrong with doing this ?


Not as long as we continue to practice the kata in it's original format.

Quote from: Moley

2. Do they exist already as part of OUR TRADITIONAL STYLE ?


Probably, but at what point/year does something become traditional?

Quote from: Moley

3. How do we know it hasn't been done already to existing kata ?


It probably has, evolution and all that, remember that the pioneers of Kara-te were continuosly adapting their techniques to become more affective in the changing times that they lived in.

As for 4 and 5, see above........
A friend is somebody you can call to help you move, a good friend is somebody you can call to help you move a body.

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Offline dogberry

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Re: How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2004, 10:26:22 PM »
Quote from: Moley


1. Is there something wrong with doing this ?
2. Do they exist already as part of OUR TRADITIONAL STYLE ?
3. How do we know it hasn't been done already to existing kata ?
4. When does a style become traditional?
5. Does it matter ?

 :?:


1. No, so long as we do not forget the 'traditional' katas, look back to the bushido so much has been (allegedly )lost  because a lot wasn't recorded, passed down to the next generation.

2. possibly :!: , but why not add to or evolve traditional kata to improve technique,thinking, timing exclusively for kicks.etc  :?: ( IT BEGS THE QUESTION, COULD YOU REALISTICALLY SHOW THE BUNKAI TO A KATA FULL OF KICKS :?:  - IT WOULD ONLY SHOW A NON STOP ASS KICKING CONTEST)

3. We dont, who cares? if it suits us then so be it, we are not trying to sell it to the JKA, just experimenting in order to improve ourselves

4. Possibly, once something has been passed down a generation or two it becomes a 'tradition' - not saying that your old, moley, but you have practiced your art over a couple of generations now so you are possibly a "tradition setter" :D

5. We shouldn't be afraid to evolve but then to follow or pursue a traditional art surely means that its origins both theoretically and their practicality need to be LEARNT before any evolution can take place, therefore YES it does matter

BTW enjoyed last nights 1st and 2nd session immensily ,learnt a lot, lots of pointers. ALUNs' going to break my fingers or even worse call me WES if I don't close my fists during KUMITE...big lesson learnt.
Many of you told me to relax,, I THOUGHT I WAS RELAXED. :shock: ...It must be just something about the fact that i've got tight shoulders and an expression like i'm constipated or something :roll:

Interesting stuff watching and being involved in the juy kumite at the end , 1st opportunity i've had  in a long time , I feel i've become very static with both attacking and defending instead of reacting to what ever 'happens'. I enjoyed the 'protecting the centre line' and less thinking and more reacting aspects of the situation.........watching GIZMO i'll comment on the other thread :shock:  8)

I'm fortunate or unfortunate, however you may view it, not to get involved in many physical confrontations as I have this knack of talking people round to my way of thinking and to be honest the training my profession has as far as 'open hand techniques' is concerned is extremely lacking...... we have two days 'refresher ' a year......it won't be long before you see many more persons of my profession involving themselves in one martial art or another.....
"knowing others is wisdom, knowing yourself is enlightenment" - Lao-Tzu

Offline Julian

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2004, 02:44:01 PM »
As this thread mentions the traditional kata... I found this link while surfing .... (it is a mexican site....but in english)

http://aiur.eii.us.es/~kobukan/videos_de_las_katas_oficiales_de.htm

The kata videos are silent and in b/w but they do show 'fluidity' of movement

Julian
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Offline Julian

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2004, 03:18:00 PM »
I found some translations of kata and need help. If the translation of the Katas are as shown below, then what exactly do they mean ?

If Heian kata is peaceful mind, then does it have any significance in the performing of the kata or is it just a name ?

Found these on a South African Site (been everywhere this afternoon)
http://www.kamae.co.za/Info.html

HEIAN SHODAN = Peaceful Mind First Level
HEIAN NIDAN = Peaceful Mind Second Level
HEIAN SANDAN = Peaceful Mind Third Level
HEIAN YONDAN = Peaceful Mind Fourth Level
HEIAN GODAN = Peaceful Mind Fifth Level

From Heian Ante meaning peace and calmness, taken from the city of Heian

TEKKI SHODAN = Horse Riding First Level
TEKKI NIDAN = Horse Riding Second Level
TEKKI SANDAN = Horse Riding Third Level


BASSAI DAI = To penetrate a fortress Major
BASSAI SHO = To penetrate a fortress Minor
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Offline Huw

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2004, 03:29:09 PM »
Says the same thing on our website Julian ...... Have you seen it yet ? Try www'sekiryuzan.org ......  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:
The hunter that chases two rabbits catches neither one.

Offline Julian

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2004, 06:03:36 PM »
Sorry Huw,

I've read ours, Its just that I was looking for something else and suddenly the though of translations and meaning came to mind. It is not that I thought that another site had more than ours :oops:

Julian
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Offline Moley

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2004, 11:07:29 PM »
Julian...Please change your avatar..


Moley


P.S. Get something more Arse kicking..

Go on an American sword art / Tameshigiri Forum and steal something from there !
Cryf oedd calon hen y glas glogwyni,
Cryfach oedd ei ebill ef a'i ddur,
Chwyddodd gyfoeth gwr yr aur a'r faenol,
O'i enillion prin a'i amal gur.

Offline Mole Bach

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2004, 11:40:33 PM »
Julian,

Do'nt ask Azzy for help either for your avatar, it will only contain a mini somewhare :roll:  :roll:
A friend is somebody you can call to help you move, a good friend is somebody you can call to help you move a body.

Keri dashi san bu, hiki shichi bu

Offline Azzy_Stealth

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2004, 07:25:58 PM »
Mowll Bach
Quote
Do'nt ask Azzy for help either for your avatar


Im working on my own at the moment. Its a little something for uploading after July--With a lot of luck.. :evil:
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Offline Azzy_Stealth

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2004, 08:16:06 PM »
Not all my avatars have been pictures of mini's you know
My Mission
To Break Ribs and Kick Asss !

Offline iac

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2004, 01:13:00 AM »
I know the senior members will know this but I have to question everyone else, Do you know the meaning behind "peaceful mind" and why it is important.  It is not just the kata, which everybody can learn, it is more the application of techniques (Bunkai), katas basically have thier own form and direction; they block and counter attack or sometimes just a block then a block (Bassaidai) but look at the practicalness of the kata then it becomes apparent.  In a real situation when faced with multiple opponents you are not going to suddenly jump into Hiean shodan.  What kata does is interpit the basic fundemental stratagey Block and Counter attack that is it, once the movements are mastered eventualy the Bunkai should be taught, therfore when practising Kata still use the basic movements but imagine that you are surrounded by oppents and that basic statagey works.

Offline Moley

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How "SACRED" are Kata ?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2004, 09:50:14 PM »
Mmmmmmmm
All this sounds very very Scottish to me...
You wouldn't happen to be a "Wee Haggis basher" would you ? ?
Cryf oedd calon hen y glas glogwyni,
Cryfach oedd ei ebill ef a'i ddur,
Chwyddodd gyfoeth gwr yr aur a'r faenol,
O'i enillion prin a'i amal gur.