Topic: TAMESHIGIRI

[Moley]

I'm learning quite a lot about swords.
I recently found out that a "Bo-Hi" is not really a "Bo-Hi" at all ! "Well I never!" I hear you say..
Actually, a "Bo-Hi" or a SO CALLED "Blood Groove" (a channel down each side of a Japanese sword blade) was not meant to prevent suction trapping the blade in a body as is commonly thought. It was originally done by the smith:
a) To hide forging flaws and incomplete welding of layers.
b) An attempt to lighten a clumsy/heavy blade
c) An attempt to balance the blade.
I-Ai-Do practicioners like a sword with a "Bo-Hi" to practice with as the "groove" produces a whistling/swishing noise when the sword is wielded correctly. This helps them in their "Solo practice" in the "Art of drawing the sword"
However... "Tameshigiri" practicioners favour a "Shinogi" blade ! That is a blade without a "Bo-Hi". Their argument is that
a) A "Bo-Hi" weakens the blade.
b) The groove actually provides more resistance when cutting as there is more surface area.
c) They don't need to hear it whistle.
d) They like the extra weight and a "meaty" blade to provide the "follow through" in a cut.

Those that appreciate blades (i.e. those that are into "hamon" "nie" and "noi" and the beauty of welded metals) also prefer a "shinogi" blade as there is no "Bo-Hi" cut along it's length to distract from the beauty of the different grains and patterns.

So what's all this gotta do with "Kata" I hear you say..
Well, In my opinion there are two kind of "Kata". One with a "Bo-Hi" i.e. a technically beautifully performed "Kata" and the other a "shinogi" type "Kata" whereby the main focus is on devastation rather than technical correctness. There is an use for both types and in competition, the fancy one with a "Bo-Hi" will always win.
Last night in training I was a "bit annoyed" about things in general and I went a bit over the top when teaching "Kata".  I wanted "Bassai-Dai" performed aggressively and wildly.             I want to "Feel the effectiveness of Kata"Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate beautifully performed "Kata".
But, I have many swords. One has a "Bo-Hi" and makes a great noise when you wield it. Another is quite chunky, heavy and "Shinogi"
I know which one I would pick up in a "REAL" swordfight !

After all...Swords are meant for CUTTING  !

[Mole Bach]

Very interesting Moley,

I also agree (to a point) on the gist of your posting, however :-

But, I have many swords. One has a "Bo-Hi" and makes a great noise when you wield it. Another is quite chunky, heavy and "Shinogi" I know which one I would pick up in a "REAL" swordfight !After all...Swords are meant for CUTTING  !

Yes, I totally agree, but; for someone to be able to perform/execute/feel techniques, they must first learn the correct way, as the 'tamashigiri practitioners have firstly had to practice 'Iai-do'; how otherwise could they execute the cutting techniques without damaging the blades?


Let me digress here to illustrate what I mean, take this scenario,

Mr A and Mr B are in the woods, both are af similar age, weight and height, and both have the same level of fitness.  They are both equiped with a Browning pistol with one magazine of bullets each.  Their objective is to kill the other one, who wins???????????????

Any idea?

Lets add some points,

Mr A has had a weeks intensive firearms course run by the local gun club.

Advantage Y/N?

Lets add another point,

Mr B is a member of the elite 22nd (that's SAS to you and me).

Now we see that the cards have changed, WHY?

TRAINING, that's why; I believe that we must practice the (quote) "fancy one with a "Bo-Hi" first, then move on when techniques have been refined.

Remember the WKSA (now the SRKH)? Only available to San-dan and above.  Why? because you had to have mastered the "fancy one with a "Bo-Hi" first.

Moley, don't think that I'm slatting you here, I honestly agree whole hartedly, it's just that some will not understand, let alone be able to grasp the concept of fighting in Kata, that's why we tend to leave these to the third sessions.

[Moley]

O.K.  I get your point..

..Start off practising with a "BO-Hi"  (To perfect your technique..same as squaddies do with "Dummy rounds"   )
Then when it comes to a "real fight".."Shinogi" (S.A.S using Live rounds)
 

I know you have a Gendaito (1944 - 1945) "Shinogi" blade at home..believe me, that is vastly superior (Combat wise) to the "really expensive  300 yr old "Bo-Hi" one that I've got.

I think I'll get some Makiwara (Yes tameshigiri targets are also called Makiwara = Straw Rolls) and you can come over for some fun...

[Julian]

a link I found on swords (while trying to find more on kata)

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1964/julaug64/swordsofjapan/swordsofjapan.html

If you move about the site there is quite a bit more there.


Julian

[Mole Bach]

Julian,

Nice site, not sure though of the authenticity of some of the statements, Moley no doubt will correct any errors on that subject.

If however you are interested in some of the sword play aspects, I suggest that you check out the film which the site mentioned with Toshiro Mifune, 'Yojimbo' (go it on VHS if you want) or the 'Seven Samurai' (pre-Hollywood, also got this if interested), only trouble is that they are sub-titled, so do'nt watch them when you're p&%%*@ (by no means speaking from experience ).

[Julian]

found a better one....

http://www.sword.ne.jp/sword.htm