Topic: Standardisation of fundamentals.

[Mole Bach]

Before you go any further, have a look at this, pay close attention to 6:09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7yb-JncKow

Now then, are we doing an Eric?

I know that we all have our own view/slant on the execution of techniques, strategies; distance etc, especially for Kumite, since it is such a personal aspect based on body types and to some extent flexibility, however, what about Kata?

All instructors teach differently, but are we teaching the same?

Kawasoe Sensei if you notice, ALWAYS covers Kata with us on his visits, and if there is something amiss, he will inform us of the way HE wants us to teach (NB: HE, not me). 

Recently, there has been a slight change in Heian Sandan, from this at 0:31

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQQ1JswUAqA&feature=related

to a more downward / pressing movement.  Do we all teach this? 

Now have a look at this, again pay attention to 0:27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3ctUR1fJv4

and 1:07 here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U309Om-xX00

Do we all teach this hiki-ashi?  If not, why not? 

We should all be consistent in the teaching of the movement of the Kata. Timing, interpretation, bunkai etc is up to the individual……………….to a degree.

I sometimes see students performing Kata and wonder who has actually taught them that? Because I sure haven’t, and I know for a fact that Kawasoe Sensei hasn’t.
 
Are we all singing from the same hymn sheet?

MB

[Huw]

Very interesting post MB.

"I sometimes see students performing Kata and wonder who has actually taught them that? Because I sure haven’t, and I know for a fact that Kawasoe Sensei hasn’t."

What specifically have you seen? An example would be illuminating.

When I was taught Tekki Shodan every one of our senior instructors performed the kata differently. The differences where mostly timing, interpretation etc. but added together they 'felt' like substantial differences. I don't for one second think that was some evil plot to confuse us all - trouble is that when humans get involved inconsistencies appear. Over time these inconsistencies become magnified and gain their own momentum.

There is also the question of what is verboten different and what is 'same but different'. Maybe that's a whole separate follow on thread!!

[Mole Bach]

What specifically have you seen? An example would be illuminating.

Let's start with something blatant, the opening move of Bassai Dai.  I have seen the front (right) knee lift to the chest as if performing a mika-zuki-geri, followed by a stomp (only word I can use to describe it).

When I was taught Tekki Shodan every one of our senior instructors performed the kata differently. The differences where mostly timing, interpretation etc.

But the TECHNIQUES were the same.

I don't for one second think that was some evil plot to confuse us all

There is also the question of what is verboten

ja voll

MB

[Huw]

ja voll

MB

Welcome to my world

[Moley]

Nothing annoys me more than the "Rimmer Salute" in Empi (7th move etc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al5bErqFrDQ

[Lloydie]

Nothing annoys me more than the "Rimmer Salute" in Empi (7th move etc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al5bErqFrDQ

funny enough, I was watching this yesterday and wondered where I'd seen that hand movement from.  Interesting movement at 1:06 too

[Lloydie]

Recently, there has been a slight change in Heian Sandan, from this at 0:31

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQQ1JswUAqA&feature=related

to a more downward / pressing movement.  Do we all teach this? 

Nope - I must admit that I still teach the movement as per the Kawasoe Sensei video.  When did it change?

[Mole Bach]

When did it change?

November 2010.


MB

[Lloydie]

dammit - I missed/didn't suss that one somehow

my bad

[JimmyTheHoover]

When did it change?

November 2010.


MB

PMSL

That particular technique/combo (osae-uke nuki-te) - hasn't actually changed AFAIK - but then again I'm actually KUGB/JKA/STKF?UKTKF/ITKF/JTKI/WTFAWN? 

Since osae-uke definitely needs a more pronounced downwards pressing movement to be effective than shown in Sensei's demo vid. IMO - never seen it "actually" demonstrated quite bthat "softly" even by Sensei.

Now getting back to the (IMO) more important point of "WTFTTITW" ? (Who The Fek Taught Them It That Way) - I know exactly what you're referring to - just attend any grading where students from multiple clubs/instructors participate and you cannot help but ask that very question - and the answer (IMHO) is "Instructors Who Seldom Train but Only Teach" - and of course also those Instructors who just don't seem to pay attention....

...but at the end of the day "they all seem to pass anyway" 

Jim

[Mole Bach]

Hi Jim,

PMSL
That particular technique/combo (osae-uke nuki-te) - hasn't actually changed

Ahhh, this one...........same....but different 

and the answer (IMHO) is "Instructors Who Seldom Train but Only Teach" - and of course also those Instructors who just don't seem to pay attention....

I know that SOME instructors will teach different things / aspects on courses (e.g. Naito and Kamino last year with the hips business for Heian Kata's), but that is an idea / teaching point that a particular instructor wants’ to get across.  The point is that Kawasoe Is our chief instructor, and if he wants’ it done that way, then we should be respectful enough to do that.   This is WHY it is so important to train with him at every possible opportunity, he come out with some gems.

...but at the end of the day "they all seem to pass anyway" 

Yes. but it's me that get's it in the neck from Sensei. 

[Shari]

 quote :-I sometimes see students performing Kata and wonder who has actually taught them that? Because I sure haven’t, and I know for a fact that Kawasoe Sensei hasn’t.


We had an example of this a few weeks ago in Maes Glas, Lloydie and myself stood there and said What the ****'s he doing.

Sometimes its NOT the instructing that is amiss its the students themselves, we teach the kata in class, they go home practice, are unsure of a move then add what they think is right, don't train for about 6 weeks, then the mistake is hard to rectify.


shari

 

[siwan]

I agree with Jimmy that the heian sandan move has not changed but that Kawsoe has made more of an  emphasis on  the need to press downwards therefore we as instructors need to show that we are listening to him and passing it on to our students. If they are not doing it in the grading it is our fault for allowing them to grade when they aren't doing it properly. Hence why mock gradings are useful. And I totally agree that training with sensei at each opportunity and actually studying how he moves and not just assuming that we re already doing it alright is so important. Any one who instructs should be there every time he comes to caernarfon, unless they have a VERY good reason not to be there. I'm sure Kawasoe gets so frustrated to have to repeat the same comments every time he comes over.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Perhaps it's time to organise an Instructors Course aimed at standardising the grading curriculum to ostensibly cover some of these basic concepts but really to use it as an opportunity to observe how the various people actually perform the basic katas and then have a quiet word with the relevent people with a baseball bat ?  

Like yourself I'm a strong believer that we should all be striving to emulate - and more importantly teach - exactly as Sensei Kawasoe teaches us.

Of course as individuals there will always I think be an element of "personal interpretation" of the conceptual aspects of Sensei's teachings and also an element of "personal constraint" due to body type and physical limitations there really is no excuse for not teaching the "proper" kihon movements for kata especially as it's very worthwhile to teach - and practice - kata performing the movements fully and slowly.

...and regarding Shari's post - yes you will allways get students who "just do it different" and that may happen for a variety of reasons raging from "I know better" to "I actually think am doing it the way you showed me" to "It doesn't really matter - it's ONLY KATA" etc. etc. but I regularly see groups of coloured belts going up for gradings and you will see several of them perform Kata "the same wrong way" and THAT is down to how the Kata is being taught.....

I'd be interestd on some feedback on how you have/would approach the situation where you see or experience kata being taught where you think the techniques are being incorrectly/sloppily demonstrated - especially by a 2Higher Grade"

JIm

[Huw]

Let's start with something blatant, the opening move of Bassai Dai.  I have seen the front (right) knee lift to the chest as if performing a mika-zuki-geri, followed by a stomp (only word I can use to describe it).

Total agreement with you on this one MB That is akin to having a whole new technique grafted onto the kata - which is clearly wrong. 

OK let me expand this a little into more difficult territory - how do we define 'same but different'? It's a phrase often used by Sensei and is wide open to interpretation. Take a look at Sensei performing Bassai Dai ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLYwQJohMyo

20 - 23 seconds in -  push ... punch ... block. The way Sensei performs this block is different now to how he performed it in this video. I noticed in Edinburgh last year and discussed the difference with best friend Takeshi. In the video Sensei brings his blocking arm back to the shoulder before blocking and transitioning into front stance. In Edinburgh last year he would leave his punching arm outstretched and transition to the block/front stance using 'only' hip vibration. Takeshi's view was 'same but different'.

My interpretation of that is that both versions are valid. The 'macro' technique is the same - uchi uke while transitioning to front stance - however the 'micro' aspect aspect of how to generate power for the block is quite different. For the record when I teach Bassai Dai I demonstrate both, but students usually chose the 'old' version as seen in the video as they (understandably) have great difficulty with hip vibration.

Is this a case of an important fundamental difference were we should only teach the latest Kawasoe way; or something which students should be aware of and choose what works for them depending on their experience/talent/body mechanics etc.?