Topic: Trusting your partner

[Moley]

I think the key word here is partner and not opponent. Last night in training, Steve Eaves and myself noticed a definite difference during Juy Ippon between those who were at ease with their partners and those who either wanted to win, or were afraid of going in. The level of Kumite between these partners was far superior to the others because of the level of commitment to the attack.
Worse by far were those who launched a half hearted attack, promptly withdrew and covered up, some even attempting to block and counter the block and counter and lashing out even after they had been countered.
This does not offer either the attacker or the defender opportunity for improvement.
The story about the chicken and the pig come to mind.

[Lloydie]

Moley wrote:

The story about the chicken and the pig come to mind.

go on - what's that one then

Dave

[Azzy_Stealth]

If this is the same subject at Moley went over in the last sesh on Thursday Wes used his camcorder to capture training..

Is it possible to see the video so I can see if I can make sence of of the

chicken and the pig

I did'nt spot this because I was concentrating on working with my partner.

I just hope I was not making a pig of it  

[Paul Roberts]

If you know and trust your training partner, I think it changes the focus of the exercise from "win" to "improve".

The defender can delay their reaction to the very last moment, safe in the knowledge that they won't get clobbered or lose face if they time it too late. Likewise the attacker can go in with full commitment - the block and counter will be controlled. Also, I think both sides are more likely to put their technique to the test, rather than falling back on brute force and other adaptations that aren't really the point of the exercise.

Of course, it's still useful to come up against an unknown or less predictable partner every so often, in the same way that hitting a bag will give you some "real world" feedback.

[Mole Bach]

The kind of attackers that Moley described as those who attack half hartedly and quickly withdraw, are in my oppinion, playing a very dangerous game.  I shall explain
1 My hand to eye co-ordination is VERY good on a stationary target.
2 My hand to eye co-ordination on a moving forward target is good (ish).
3 My hand to eye co-ordination on a moving away target is crap.

Moral
Either stand still or move forward for me to counter.  If they move away, then it's their own stupid fault.  

[Hades]

I'm sure that this boils down to a question of 'guts'.

If the attacker has no intent (ie commitment) when delivering the technique, then how can they retreat so fast?

If the fear of being hit restricts their attack, then why bother training, after all, it is a 'martial art'!

[Mole Bach]

The Chicken and the Pig which Moley refered to, is a training aid which I use to illustrate various ways of attacking.

The Full English breakfast consists of bacon and egg.
The Chicken contributes, but the Pig is commited.  

[Moley]

To learn karate i.e. to be able to train regularly and make full use of a partner to quicken your reflexes you must build up a rapport with your training partner/partners. Trust is needed so that together you can learn with confidence and without injury. As skill progresses you and your partner/partners should be able to push each other to greater and greater levels of speed, accuracy and skills.One often hears the expression;
"You are only as good as the people you train with/train under" hence the variation in quality and capability between styles/cubs/ different dan grades.
Homework:
Although there is a need for partner rapport and trust, to what extent do you think that blocks ( and indeed the "Budo" aspect ) are loosing their effectiveness because of it.
Discuss

[Huw]

Although there is a need for partner rapport and trust, to what extent do you think that blocks ( and indeed the "Budo" aspect ) are loosing their effectiveness because of it.

OK if I've understood this properly the suggestion is that because we 'know' (or hope) that our partner will not actually strike us we get lazy with our blocking.

I'm sure most of us don't want to get hit - particularly in the face - on a regular basis. Frequently turning up to work with a black eye/broken nose would land most people in trouble with the boss. If think we all respect this reality and therefore tend to "pull" jodan punches in order to give our partners time to block. This being the case then the 'budo' aspect of training is diminished, at least to a certain extent. Chudan level, to me at least, is different - and punches to the gut seem to be delivered much faster and with more comitment as they are less likely to harm our partners. Maybe a case of karate training being weakened by the reality of modern life ?

Having said this nothing focuses my blocking as much as seeing Big John's asteroid sized fist hurtling toward my brainbox!!  Yikes.  

[Lloydie]

I agree with Huw.  The chudan punches tend to have more "reality" about them than the jodan attacks, because people are more inhibited, generally, in attacking the face/throat area.

It depends, however, on who your partner is and to what extent you "agree the rules" before you engage.  Perhaps we should be more explicit in agreeing the "venom" of the attack with people we have been training with a while and trust.  There would have to be complete commitment to the idea that this is to improve the budo/blocking aspect of the kumite, rather than attempting merely to "tag" your opponent.


lloydey

[dogberry]

LLoydey,
            I tend to agree with you on this and work on the basis that the more your opponent/partner puts in the more you are going to get out of it.
I often find that when faced with the likes of moley i work/react quicker...I think...., although he still gets through!!!... its after this sort of contact you realise...HHMMMMM ..still lots to do!!!!!!
I personally would like to speed up my reaction time to a kick/punch and due to my short stature find it easier to sabaki (or is it sabachi) rather than move back. But then am i jumping the gun as far as mastering the kihon!!!!!

In work I work on the basis of creating space then moving in when the  opportunity arises, they prefer us to "spray" people these days to avoid any physical contact and injuries to ourselves and of course the other person!!!..

dogberry

[Icy]

I think it would be interesting to see how we would develop if we kept to the same partner (or samll number of - say max of 4) for practising kumite.
I have certainly found that I can 'train harder' with certain karateka eg. Lloydey, Frankie and Helen . Whenever you build confidence and trust with your partner, you begin to move faster and with more force as you begin to  understand how to interact with each other, you learn each others parameters and limitations.
In this way, I think it becomes easier to learn your own possibilities and limitations which in turn, allows you to concertrate effort in particular areas eg attacking, blocking, punching or kicking.

[Lloydie]

Interesting idea from Icy, that we stick to partners a bit.   I like this idea, in that it would develop a higher level of skill through confident training with a trusted partner.  However, we would need to also move around to different partners who would come at us with unfamiliar timing/moves etc.  I guess the question is how we initiate a training schedule that allows growth in confidence and skill whilst accommodating the unfamiliar to allow us to push "the envelope" out a bit.

Perhaps we could choose opponents for kumite?

I am currently very much in favour of choosing opponents  
lloydey

[Moley]

One training strategy we adopted in the past was that of having two fixed partners. Instructor would shout "Face partner A" who would be the one you would be comfortable with, and then "Face partner B" who would be the one to take you to the edge.
This worked a treat.
Perhaps now is the time to bring it back ?

[Mole Bach]

TRUST, Baah.

The ultimate trust is when you stand there for target practice (you know, the one when three of you stand there at angles and a load of people throw punches at your face?).

Me thinks that "those with bad control should be the ones standing in the line"