Topic: Fighting or Aesthetics ? ?

[Moley]

I enjoy watching a Kata being performed elegantly and find beauty in athletic performance of Kata. But always my underlying thought when watching and judging kata is the question "Are the techniques effective"?
When teaching Kata I know that I emphasise too much on the Fighting aspect and not enough on the correctness of technique and fluidity of movement. This I tend to leave to the other instructors. Sometimes I feel guilty for being so negligent and try to concentrate on the correctness, but always revert back to my wild teaching ways because of the frustration generated when I see Students plodding along and treating Kata as nothing more than a sequence of moves whereby the only important issue is "Which move come's next"
I've tried screaming, shouting, using sound effects, demonstrating bunkai,
(once I even took a punch on the chin off a student to show how ineffective the technique was) so what can I do to get them to introduce some venom into their techniques.
Steve, the chief instructor at Trinity College Dublin Kartae club once told us about his karate students.
"I don't ### care what they look like....as long as they can ### fight."

What do you think ?

[Lloydie]

Moley,  I think that we don't concentrate enough on the meaning of the moves - or possible meanings, as moves can be interpreted as blocks, strikes etc.  From my viewpoint, I tend to try to learn a new kata because it is required for my next grading.  This has the effect of me "forgetting" the one I did for my last grading.   It certainly does not help me focus on what it is the kata is trying to convey, in fighting terms.

However, there is only so much instructors can cover in a hour's session.  Kata also has to fit in with the other aspects of karate - kihon and kumite - that students want to learn so that they progress.

I am not sure what the answer is to this, however I think that we (students) do have to take responsibility for our own learning, and not have unreal expectations of what instructors can get over to us if we are training 1 or 2 hours a week.

What about asking students to demonstrate one aspect of their current (or previous) kata that could be applied in a real life situation? - That might get us lot thinking a bit more about effectiveness and venom.

Dave

[Moley]

Ahh Lloydey, the point that I'm trying to get across here is that a Punch in one Kata is still a punch in another Kata as it is in all kata. A block is still a block. I'm not concerned with making up complicated Bunkai, all I'm concerned with is getting the punch which is the same punch they learned in Kihon kata to be performed as an effective punch and not as part of ("The Hokey Kokey"...put your left arm in..your left arm out...in out  in out shake it all about.)

[Mole Bach]

What about asking students to demonstrate one aspect of their current (or previous) kata that could be applied in a real life situation? - That might get us lot thinking a bit more about effectiveness and venom.

Dave,
I agree to some extent, however ALL students should be looking for meaning in ALL moves in ALL Kata.

Take for example Heien Sho-Dan.  The 4th move from Gedan-barrai into the Tetsui is usually demonstrated as a realese from a grab (Nakayama Sensei), but, if you alter the distance/attack to a Mae-Geri, the pulling action of the hand becomes Kake-uke.  Personally I prefer this one, should I be daft enough to allow someone to grab my hand in the first place is an insult to my intelligence (Ha Ha, YES, there is some).

We do teach some of these daft applications, but only to feed the imagination.

[Lloydie]

Mole Bach - couldn't agree more - but to feed the imagination we have to ask people to be imaginative.  Unfortunately, in my view, the grading system does not allow for the picking apart of kata in order to apply kihon moves to the kata.  (which is what Moley was going on about).  I do think that the "rush to next belt" gets in the way here.  I think your view of Heian Shodan is a good example here, I would not have thought about it in the way you described - why? because I am too busy thinking about the moves in my next kata - Basai Dai.

I think that if students are told to "visualise" an attacks as "this", they will find it hard to move out of that given scenario, why? because we tend to defer to the knowledge of our seniors.  What we want to do is get a bit of lateral  thinking.  Asking a student "what does this mean?" allows them to put various ideas together in a more meaningful (for the student) way.

dave

[Icy]

In my old club (yes I know yawn look I studied that style for years ok!) whenever we were learning a new kata, the instructor would tell us move for move what the application was, this was really only necessary the first time (and athough it may have been just that individual instuctor's interpretation -  it was a vital component of the learning process). Once the students had some inference of what the moves were for and why they were executed in such a way (and yes Moley I know that block is a block and an attack is an attack) it was then much easier to  practise on ones own because it was like remembering some personal anecdote or story.

For me, Tekki Shodan is very difficult to get right because I have no rationale for the moves - that is, no one has explained to me the  application, and although I think I may be able to work it out for myself, some sort of reinforcement would reassure me and help me remember the moves.

[Mole Bach]

Dave,

Again I must reply with this,

COME TO THE LAST SESSION

(I know it may be late for Jnr, but I believe that higher grades should attend these sessions to gain quality training)

[Mole Bach]

For me, Tekki Shodan is very difficult to get right because I have no rationale for the moves

Ice,

Tekki Sho-Dan is the worst Kata ever invented.

It is a nightmare to learn and to teach, ask the new 3rd Kyu's.

The Bunkai af the Tekki Kata is VERY complex, and words cannot express its effectiveness aginst a close opponent, I suggest that we should devote an evening (maybe Saturday afternoon training???) to discuss and practice some of the kata from Tekki upwards (NO, NOT in the PUB).

[Icy]

Mole Bach - I would love to come to the last session, but when you have kids (yes even big ones)it is difficult to get the time.

I would be very interested and keen to participate in a weekend KATA SESSION - as long as there was some kind of rehydration afterwards!

[Mole Bach]

I would be very interested and keen to participate in a weekend KATA SESSION - as long as there was some kind of rehydration afterwards!

Ice,
DEFINATELY SAME SCHOOL

[Lloydie]

I like the idea of a weekend kata/bunkai session.  Seems there is lots to fit in next year!!  

Dave

There must be a rehydration event after of course

[Moley]

There we are, a discussion underway on Kata effectiveness and Bunkai. My job is nearly done. I now suggest Mole bach and Gizmo prepare a lesson on Tekki Shodan for the new year.
Also we revive the "Rota". as from Jan 6th
I need their input to bounce my ideas off.

Remember the Mnemonics
 
  Monday BEG        (Brian, Eryl Gwyn)
  Thursday GAP      (Gwyn Alun Paul)


Oss

[Mole Bach]

Remember the Mnemonics

Were they a pop group in the sixty's?

[Mole Bach]

Ok, Kata.

Take a look at what Nishiama Sensei has to say on
http://www.itkf.org/

go to the technical info (on the left, NO the other left, sorry, thought I was teaching the brown belts) and click on Karate Kata (well, what else?)

[h]

xpKata are just blinkin' marvelous
but of course as a baby red belt I'm probrably not entitled to freedom of speech. Whether we know the bunkai or do it for the endomorphines and / or aesthetics (and sensai Brian acused me of dancing through a kata tonight  - wait till I add a frock and a little Erica Badu) I still think they are great.



The truth is it's not possible to fight a kata a if your life depended upon it untill you are so comfortable with it that it has become an old friends. That's why Jewels and I practise the basic choreography of katas (well she has to sort out left and rights for me)   - So that we can actually benefit from the expert tuition in training rather than stumble with no idea  of basic geography.



And on the subject of katas - Mole bach  What was that kata you were practising tonight? Blinking amazing!!!!! Jewels thought you had fallen - but it was an interegal part of it. Wow - will you do it again sometime?


Moley can we have a few demonstration weird and unusual katas at the kata workshop on the 22nd. It was sitting in on your "advanced class" (a thursday night 8pm class) of full of kids and big hairy men doing amazing things in tekki Shoddan than really seduced me into the Shotokan way.

h