Topic: Which Kick is most difficult ?

[JimmyTheHoover]

Of the basic kicks in the UKTKF grading syllabus up to 1st Kyu wich do you find the most difficult and why do you think this is so ?

[Azzy_Stealth]

May I start the ball rolling with the final soultion to this quesition 

In my view I believe that Ushirogeri is the hardest to perform 

technically correct
quickly
balanced
targeted
powerfully

hence the most difficult ???? In MY view.

I am far from being of of   those who dislike kicks  as long as they come from my right leg 

Having said this im not toooo bad at it 

[JimmyTheHoover]

May I start the ball rolling with the final soultion to this quesition 

In my view I believe that Ushirogeri is the hardest to perform 

technically correct
quickly
balanced
targeted
powerfully

hence the most difficult ???? In MY view.

I am far from being of of 8-[  those who dislike kicks  as long as they come from my right leg 

Having said this im not toooo bad at it 

Cheers - Azzy - and indeed you're entitled to  your view......

I quite like your list of points for consideration - not so sure that I agree (necessarily) with the specific requirement for the kick to be technically correct  but I suppose that you could argue that a certain level of technical corectness is necessary inorder for a kick to be "effective"......

My personal opinion is that Mawashi-Geri is a much more difficult kick due to the need to deliver the kick in a "non-linear" direction using body rotation and corrrect hip action (the really difficult bit IMO) to generate power....

I actually think that it is MUCH easier to deliver an effective Ushiro-geri as the delivery line is still basically linear - like Mae-Geri - despite the need to rotate the body through 180 to enable that delivery.....

I EVEN think that Yoko-Geri-Keage is a more difficult kick to deliver effectively than Ushiro FWIW..... 

[Huw]

I EVEN think that Yoko-Geri-Keage is a more difficult kick to deliver effectively than Ushiro FWIW..... 

Now your talking !! Yoko Geri Keage .... Argh. OK I have always had great problems with this, and still do with my left leg.

My biggest problem with Keage is thatI can't find a use for it! Ushiro, mawashi, yoko geri kegomi are all regularly seen in jyu kumite - but keage ... I've never seen it used! Ever. Does it have a use? (This is a serious question!)

[JimmyTheHoover]

I EVEN think that Yoko-Geri-Keage is a more difficult kick to deliver effectively than Ushiro FWIW..... 

Now your talking !! Yoko Geri Keage .... Argh. OK I have always had great problems with this, and still do with my left leg.

My biggest problem with Keage is thatI can't find a use for it! Ushiro, mawashi, yoko geri kegomi are all regularly seen in jyu kumite - but keage ... I've never seen it used! Ever. Does it have a use? (This is a serious question!)

I personally think that it (like ALL other Shotokan Techniques) most certainly does - I also think that part of "your" (no disrespect - just using you as an example Huw) proble is looking for it's use in Jyi-Kumite 

Some techniques are just TOO dangerous (and/or difficult) to use safely in a kumite scenarion (again IMO) - when was the last time you saw Hiza-Geri used either or Kakato-Geri ?

I think that - done correctly - Yoko-Keage is a devastating SHORT RANGE MIDDLE (or low ) LEVEL technique. When practicing this kick I think that a lot of people tend to try to deliver keage as a kind of "pulled back" kekomi whcih is also sometimes inclined to be targeted too high (IMO)
 
Can't comment on whether this is the correct approach or not I can only say that it doesn't work for me and leads to my over-extending the kick whilst slowing it's delivery dramatically and almost forcing me to not use the "correct" hip movement with potentially disastrous effects on the wellbeing of my joints/tendons/muscles etc.

[Lloydie]

ura mawashigeri, followed by ushiro-geri.  Ura mawashi because of the change in direction of the kick at a "far point" of the technique, Ushiro cos of what Azzy said.

Lloydie

[JimmyTheHoover]

ura mawashigeri, followed by ushiro-geri.  Ura mawashi because of the change in direction of the kick at a "far point" of the technique, Ushiro cos of what Azzy said.

Lloydie

Lloydie - would have agreed with you but I specifically restricted the list of kicks in question to Kyu Grade Syllabus....

....however if I hadn't limited the list of kicks I would be sorely tempted to agree with you if it weren't for things like mae-tobi-ushiro-ura-mawashi-geri......... 

[gungnir]

Isn't it more about effectivness of a kick ?
Sometimes when I am doing Randori or soft Kumite I am thinking about which techniques can be used.
Usually I have much bigger partners (taller, heavier) and they would laugh about my Mawashi-Geri (although I don't think that I have a weak kick). But when I look at their faces they would "take" the Mawashi and send me to the floor. Ok ... you can kick it on Solar-Plexus height ... but it don't works every time.
The same with an Ura-Mawashi-Geri ... would I really use this kick in Randori or Kumite ? I guess not ... I have to be too fast and in most cases you can see what your opponent is doing.
I think Mae-Geri (Kekomi and Keage) can be very effective ... and Ushiro- Geri as well in a fight.
In general I try to train every kick ... and improve technique ... but how do you define difficult?
Is it really about technique-difficulties or more about difficulies in effectiveness?
 

[siwan]

Isn't it more about effectivness of a kick ?
Is it really about technique-difficulties or more about difficulies in effectiveness?
 

exactly, you can see some people deliver a very pretty kick, but know full well that if they hit anything that it wouldn't be very effective, and would probably make contact with the wrong part of the foot etc. This is why I value training on bags so much. You know that if you dont pull your toes back enough in mae geri or mawashi that they re going to get hurt, and if you re leaning back in yoko geri kekomi or ushiro that you ll bounce off. with much repetition on bags you know when you re producing a pretty and  ponsy or powerful technique, and through the training you adjust your kick to make it more effective.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Isn't it more about effectivness of a kick ?
Sometimes when I am doing Randori or soft Kumite I am thinking about which techniques can be used.
Usually I have much bigger partners (taller, heavier) and they would laugh about my Mawashi-Geri (although I don't think that I have a weak kick). But when I look at their faces they would "take" the Mawashi and send me to the floor. Ok ... you can kick it on Solar-Plexus height ... but it don't works every time.
The same with an Ura-Mawashi-Geri ... would I really use this kick in Randori or Kumite ? I guess not ... I have to be too fast and in most cases you can see what your opponent is doing.
I think Mae-Geri (Kekomi and Keage) can be very effective ... and Ushiro- Geri as well in a fight.
In general I try to train every kick ... and improve technique ... but how do you define difficult?
Is it really about technique-difficulties or more about difficulies in effectiveness?
 

Good points Gungnir.

I made a similar comment earlier about effectiveness versus technical correctness to Azzy so I guess it's obviously one are for discussion - any thoughts anyone or do we need to split this of for another topic ?

Regarding effectiveness of  Mawashi/Ura-Mawashi - I've never seen any comparitive studies on the frelative forces generated by different kicks but I would agree that the overall force/impact generated by an ura-mawashi would be less than say a yoko-kekomi.

However in kumite it's sometimes worth recognizing - IMO - that teher acn be differing levels of effectiveness that are most appropriate for different circumstances.

What I mean by this is that it may be more effective overall to catch an opponent unawares with - say ura-mawashi - to open them up for "todai"/finishing blow with gyaku-tsuki than to attempt to finish a styrong opponent with a single ushiro say.....

This is partly why I tried to focus this discussion on the "dificulty" aspects as oppose to many other aspects of technique - look forward to more topics such as "Which Kick Is Most Effective" - "Which Kick Is  Most Powerfull"  - "Which Kick Looks Prettiest" - "Which Kick is the Most Suicidal in Kumite"  

Also good question you raised "How do you define difficult...."

Could be the Technical aspects that Azzy raised.....

Could be how difficult is it to score with.......

Could be how difficult is it to controll....

....difficult to recover from.....

 

[Lloydie]

Lloydie - would have agreed with you but I specifically restricted the list of kicks in question to Kyu Grade Syllabus....

  I'll never get the hang of this reading lark 

Lloydie

[JimmyTheHoover]

Lloydie - would have agreed with you but I specifically restricted the list of kicks in question to Kyu Grade Syllabus....

  I'll never get the hang of this reading lark 

Lloydie

Are you and Huw related ? - other than being Brothers in Sekki 

Obviously doesn't matter though as anything posted that gets discussion about Karate is good in my books 

[GuyB]

OK.. heres my 2 cents..

Kyu syllabus kicks I find (suspiciously) 'easy' -

Yoko Keage (I dunno why so many people have a problem here.. its just a mae geri to the side with the foot turned over into  sokuto - I think maybe most people try to do it with thier hips turned too far over)

Kyu syllabus kicks I find difficult..

Yoko Kekomi - from zenkutsu dachi (hard to recover from.. and just goes to pot if I'm tired)
Mawashi geri - I still don't know exactly what the 'correct' technique is for it (everyone in our club does it differently).. so I just look at the target and do what feels right.
Mae geri - Its so simple yet so hard to master.. and then they tell you theres a kekomi version!
Ushiro Geri - I can do it sparring OK.. just not in kihon for some reason.

Kicks I find occasionally useful in kumite..

Mae ashi mae geri (look up here!.. SURPRISE!)
Mae ashi mawashi geri (defending your centreline are you.. SURPRISE!)

[Huw]

Kyu syllabus kicks I find (suspiciously) 'easy'

I have a feeling you may regret this remark 

Mae geri - Its so simple yet so hard to master.. and then they tell you theres a kekomi version!
Ushiro Geri - I can do it sparring OK.. just not in kihon for some reason.

Good points. Mae geri is not the easiest to 'master', but when you can do it 'right' it feels so good. A near sexual experience.

Ushiro geri is MUCH easier to do when you have a target.

Mae geri kekomi ... ask you missus, that's the version the ninjas do.

[brywithay]

I'm not one that 's averse to using kicks during kumite - far from it !!!- but I do tend to shun from Mae Geri.  A real emphasis on bag work is necessary on this kick ( as are all kicks of course) to appreciate the essential mechanics of the kick - bringing up the knee and pushing the hips forward whilst simultaneously snapping the leg out - making sure the toes are pulled back- and leg immediately snapping back - heel of the support leg firmly embedded on the ground. 
~This is all performed in matter of seconds of course - failure usually  resulting in the leg sweeping up in an arc and missing the target completely- knoworImean? 
There's not one piece of apparatus invented that you can successfully practice this kick on - unless it's stationary. 
I've always been quite confident with all my kicks - may have looked "pretty" but it's sobering each time I do bag work  - of the lack of strength I have in my kicks - relying on flexibility rather than correct hip usage which must be practised if any "weight" is to be felt on each kicking technique