Topic: What about That BIt In This Kata ?

[JimmyTheHoover]

Feel free to post here when you need explanation/clarification/opinions regarding a move/combination/sequence/Aplication for part of a Kata you are working on - could be timing/breathing/application(bunkai)/whatever - just pots and ask away......

[Moley]

O.K. - Question for Jimmy (ONLY)

Nijushiho....
Following Kaijii Block, doublehand Push :

Turn - Haito - Stand up Hands together Ki Aii - Down  Body both hands out - Change hands/punch

Before Tateshutouke in kokutsudachi.

[Huw]

Another question for JTH

Heian Nidan. Towards the end there's a moroto uke moving forward. What's that all about?

[JimmyTheHoover]

O.K. - Question for Jimmy (ONLY)

Nijushiho....
Following Kaijii Block, doublehand Push :

Turn - Haito - Stand up Hands together Ki Aii - Down  Body both hands out - Change hands/punch

Before Tateshutouke in kokutsudachi.

Whoa Boys and Girls ! 

I only created the thread as I thought it might be a good topic for discussion - didn't want to use the "Banned B-Word" 

Didn't mean to create a "Dear Jimmy" thread - but its nice to know that you all value my "experience" so much 

Anyway - back to Moley's question .......

Depending on quite how "inventive" you wish to be one interpretation of the sequence described could be as follows :-

Throw hands up to distract opponent as you Kia and drop quickly to scoop his front leg which you pull sharpluy upwards as you simultaneously strike the knee with your other (right) hand - continue to lever leg to unbalance opponent and follow him down with double fist trike to finish on ground......

[JimmyTheHoover]

Another question for JTH

Heian Nidan. Towards the end there's a moroto uke moving forward. What's that all about?

.....well just so happens that we were doing this kata again recently and one interpretation that was demonstrated was that  as your opponent moves back from your Kick-punch and counters with a punch which you block gyaku-uchi-uke then you immediately step through maintaining contact with the blocked arm as the morote-uke becomes a form of tate-tsuki (or uraken) as you attack the opponents nose/throat - and can even finish like the age-tsuki in Heian Godan.....

[Moley]

O.K. - Question for Jimmy (ONLY)

Nijushiho....
Following Kaijii Block, doublehand Push :

Turn - Haito - Stand up Hands together Ki Aii - Down  Body both hands out - Change hands/punch

Before Tateshutouke in kokutsudachi.

"Whoa Boys and Girls ! 

I only created the thread as i thought it might be a good topic for discussion - didnt want to use the "Banned B-Word" 

Didnt mean to crete a "Dear Jimmy" thread - but its nice to know that you all value my "experience" so much 

Anyway - back to Moley's question .......

Depending on quite how "inventive" you wish to be one interpretation of the sequence described could be as follows :-

Throw hands up to distract opponent as you Kia and drop quickly to scoop his front leg which you pull sharpluy upwards as you simultaneously strike the knee with your other (right) hand - continue to lever leg to unbalance opponent and follow him down with double fist trike to finish on ground......

Mmmmmmmmmm  thought you'd say that..

Now ask yourself this
1. Why distract with a Ki-Aii ?  You've just done a Haito  Ask why ?
2. Who's gonna kick you after you just whallopped him with a haito in the Carotid Sinus ?
3. Catch a Kick ???? ... ohhh ... Not me
4. Punch the knee ??.. Don't think so....


Try this one...

Attacker swings a haymaker to your face
Drop down and block it with your left arm (Break it if possible)
Swing a right hand Haito into his throat
Grab the head with both hands and twist wrench it down to floor. Ki Aii breaking neck
Punch face before it hits floor.

Ohhh Nasty I know... but that's what kata is all about... "NASTINESS

[Huw]

.....well just so happens that we were doing this kata again recently and one interpretation that was demonstrated was that  as your opponent moves back from your Kick-punch and counters with a punch which you block gyaku-uchi-uke then you immediately step through maintaining contact with the blocked arm as the morote-uke becomes a form of tate-tsuki (or uraken) as you attack the opponents nose/throat - and can even finish like the age-tsuki in Heian Godan.....

The more I repeat this move the more I think it's a throw. After the Harry Cook course I'm even more convinced. Kick and punch your opponent then grab him and throw him (or her!). I'm just curious as to what everybody else thinks the moroto-uke is for!

BTW Moley. I think we should all be demonstrating more bunkai when we  teach kata. I demonstrated the elbow break bunkai from the beginning of Heian Nidan to a small group a few Wednesdays ago and Charlotte (purple and white belt) told me she'd never been shown this before.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Moley - your love of nastiness must be one of the worst kept Seki Secrets Ever 

.... and you know that I'm a big fan of real/nasty Karate applications also 

Now regarding your "feedback" and alternative scenario 

Now ask yourself this
1. Why distract with a Ki-Aii ?  You've just done a Haito  Ask why ?

You might have missed or blocked.....

2. Who's gonna kick you after you just whallopped him with a haito in the Carotid Sinus ?

I didn't mention bing kicked - in fact I deliberately avoided that "cliched" application - also if your Haito to the Carotid had hit the target then I would suggest that the need for any of your further Bunkai would be somehwat redundant  and I'll put it down to a simple case of over enthusiasm on your part.....

3. Catch a Kick ???? ... ohhh ... Not me

See comment for 2 above.....

4. Punch the knee ??.. Don't think so....

Did I say punch ? I believe I said strike (posibly palm-heel)- the intent being to both damage the kneecap itself but also to allow hyperextension/breakage of the joint itself from the associated leverage from the combined scooping/striking actions......


Having said that - only as you asked mind you not in criticism of your alternative Bunkai - as well as the "nastiness" of real karate that's somewhat hidden in the KAta I also love the potentially endless variatey of applications that can be found. When teaching kata to kyu grades I frequently tell them that what'simportant when performing Kata is to "keep it real" - by which I mean that they need to visualize some for of application for each part of the kata - doesn't matter if it's textbook - doesn't have to be wjhat the teacjer says/shows - but it's got to make sense to THEM - that way they can perform it with purpose instead of just going through the motions..... 

[JimmyTheHoover]

.....well just so happens that we were doing this kata again recently and one interpretation that was demonstrated was that  as your opponent moves back from your Kick-punch and counters with a punch which you block gyaku-uchi-uke then you immediately step through maintaining contact with the blocked arm as the morote-uke becomes a form of tate-tsuki (or uraken) as you attack the opponents nose/throat - and can even finish like the age-tsuki in Heian Godan.....

The more I repeat this move the more I think it's a throw. After the Harry Cook course I'm even more convinced. Kick and punch your opponent then grab him and throw him (or her!). I'm just curious as to what everybody else thinks the moroto-uke is for!

BTW Moley. I think we should all be demonstrating more bunkai when we  teach kata. I demonstrated the elbow break bunkai from the beginning of Heian Nidan to a small group a few Wednesdays ago and Charlotte (purple and white belt) told me she'd never been shown this before.

Can you please describe in a bit more detail the throwing application Huw.... sounds interesting 

[Moley]

Moley - your love of nastiness must be one of the worst kept Seki Secrets Ever 

.... and you know that I'm a big fan of rel/nasty Karate applications also 

Now regarding your "feedback" and alternative scenario 

Now ask yourself this
1. Why distract with a Ki-Aii ?  You've just done a Haito  Ask why ?

You might have missed or blocked.....

2. Who's gonna kick you after you just whallopped him with a haito in the Carotid Sinus ?

I didn't mention bing kicked - in fact I deliberately avoided that "cliched" application - also if your Haito to the Carotid had hit the target then I would suggest that the need for any of your further Bunkai would be somehwat redundant  and I'll put it down to a simple case of over enthusiasm on your part.....

3. Catch a Kick ???? ... ohhh ... Not me

See comment for 2 above.....

4. Punch the knee ??.. Don't think so....

Did I say punch ? I believe I said strike (posibly palm-heel)- the intent being to both damage the kneecap itself but also to allow hyperextension/breakage of the joint itself from the associated leverage from the combined scooping/striking actions......


Having said that - only as you asked mind you not in criticism of your alternative Bunkai - as well as the "nastiness" of real karate that's somewhat hidden in the KAta I also love the potentially endless variatey of applications that can be found. When teaching kata to kyu grades I frequently tell them that what'simportant when performing Kata is to "keep it real" - by which I mean that they need to visualize some for of application for each part of the kata - doesn't matter if it's textbook - doesn't have to be wjhat the teacjer says/shows - but it's got to make sense to THEM - that way they can perform it with purpose instead of just going through the motions..... 

Try your bunkai... with a partner

Then Try mine... With SERIOUS CONTROL..

Which one "FEELS" natural ?

[Huw]

Can you please describe in a bit more detail the throwing application Huw.... sounds interesting 

OK try this next time your in the dojo. Grab someone by the lapels of their jacket. Then proceed to throw them at right angles to the right. Complete the throw by dropping your weight and finishing in a low front stance. Your hands naturally finish in something VERY close to moroto uke. Try it a few times and see if you agree with me that it would be a very effective throwing technique.

Given that I reckon that "block-kick-punch-throw" works nicely as a bunkai for that bit of Heian Nidan. All you need remember is not to do it in a straight line, and to unbalance your opponent before throwing them.

Does any of this make sense to you?

[JimmyTheHoover]

O.K. - for the time being I've decided to duck out of the potential "My Bunkai Is Bigger Than Your Bunkai" war of words..... 
.....but I will return to it later - maybe   

However the posts so far have raised an interesting point that I'd like to get some feedback on.......

Regarding Bunkai - what's the feeling/thoughts/emotions about Bunkai in general ?

e.g.

Is there ONLY one correct Bunkai for any "bit" of a Kata ?

Are ALL the moves/techniques in Kata actually part of some Bunkai ?

Does the Bunkai need to work in the actual Kata Stances ?

Can the directions of the movement in the Kata be changed to accomodate the Bunkai or should the "correct" Bunkai work using the Kata Embusen ?

Is the Kata "one long Bunkai" or is it a set of "Little Bunkai" which has been arranged in a particular order for teaching purposes ? (related to above question I suppose)

Is the timing/breathing of the BUnkai the same as the Kata ?

[Huw]

Did you try my take on moroto uke? What do you think? Effective throw?

Can the directions of the movement in the Kata be changed to accommodate the Bunkai or should the "correct" Bunkai work using the Kata Embusen ?

Personally I think that changing direction for bunkai is fine - you wouldn't fight in straight lines would you?! My pet hate is team kata in Blackpool when some of the teams take huge liberties with the actual techniques of a kata in order to dream up hugely overcomplicated bunkai. Surely bunkai should be simple and easy to remember/execute. 

[gungnir]

wow ... such a bunch of questions ... or statements (???).
How do you see a Kata Jimmy ? Is it for you as you fight in a circle ? That you start on one point ... going forward, sidewards and backwards but still go back to the place where you came from ? Fight for the place where you are standing ?

Partly i think (nearly) all movements in a Kata can be interpreted in an individual way as Bunkai-techniques. Take for exaple often the starting or finishing movements. You could say that every movement (even when u are standing in Yoy --> sorry i have no idea how the word is written in English) has a sense.

I never had the impression that Bunkai has to work in exactly the stance it is done in the Kata ... i always had to follow the senseis interpretation i was training with and that point. Now i do it the way it feels best for me - except i am told to do it in a special way ... training methods!

Bunkai does absolutely not has to go into the same situation as the Kata. Look at the different styles which Abate is teaching ... or Shirai ... you don't know afterwards what  or which technique he was trying to explain to you.

I am splitting the Kata in a logical way (just logical for me ) so either one long way ... or more small things ... like the way i want to train it at that moment ...

TIming is also a question of how you feel good, or is it not ????
When i train it in a long connected way i need a lot of opponents and a loooot of concentration ... and a good knowledge of the Kata. If i split it i can train it with one partner in Bunkai ... so it depends.

[Moley]

Bunkai should work in any direction.. remember Enbusen (dare I say it ?) doesn't exist and was only invented in the 50's by the JKA. (oops - OUCH ! there goes the top of my little finger)

Try this one... (Shhhh Huw ... I showed it on you )
Jitte (ju - te )

Opening move step back, move forward 45 deg one palm heel up one down

 This next bit ....

1.Left hand slaps on to right wrist - 2. inside palm strike to right -  3.move forward Teisho (Palm heel strike)

(Think outside the box)