Topic: Is this move okay to do??

[Makoto]

I think it is okay, as far as I understand ITKF rules and what not, but I am not 100% positive.

Lately when I spar, sometimes what I do is charge the guy, using my guard hand to push my opponet's guard hand into his body and then I shove my opponet back. He takes a step back because of the unorthodox move, and because I pushed him, this gives me the space and time to put in a reverse punch clean and easily.

What I am talking about is like a gladiator rushing the guy and using his sheild to knock the guy off balance and then attacking with the sword hand. The feeling is the same, and to people watching it looks the same I suspect. It might seem a bit aggressive.

Therein lies the problem. In the dojo sparring this move is fine. But in a tournament would such a move get me a warning? Would it seem to be unsporting on me??

I hope I have explained this move well enough??

In general how is pushing your opponent off balance and then attack look. To me it is the same as sweeping. The thing is pushing is more like real fighting than tournament sparring.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Sounds fine to me Makoto but I don't know about what the "Rules" say  - as far as I'm concerned it's just another "distraction" technique 

However if you can get that close.....

1) Why doesn't opponent hit you with other hand ?

2) Why don't you just follow up the guard had deflection with a uraken or alternative close range technique ?

....do you find it effective in sparring situations then ? 

[Makoto]

Why don't you just follow up the guard had deflection with a uraken or alternative close range technique ?

It is not a deflection as such. I am body checking the guy. I would be called off balance because of the way I am banging into the guy, if I tried an uraken or such.

My apologies in not being able to describe this any better. Lets try this. You know right after hajime is called, the two fighter take about 5 seconds(or maybe the whole match) and respect each other's space. They do not want to get too close and they treat each other as equals. What I am talking about is you are following that idea, and that you respect the idea that any punch can hurt you, but then you take advantage of the fact this is just free sparring. So, you ignore the respected bubble and use your guard hand to quash his guard and then you push on his chest and push him backwards. The surprise of no attack, combined with you ignore convention makes him step back a few steps. This allows you to be able to break the guys balance, timing, and thinking for a second and you are able to score a point. I am sure this has real world applications as well.

I hope this does a better job.

Call me John please. We might meet someday. I hope.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Hi John - of course I'm Jim or Jimmy as my Welsh friends seem to prefer (as apparently all folk from the Glasgow area of Scotland are apparently called Jimmy anyway  )

Thanks for clarifying what you are attempting  - I think tha I was originally interpreting it as the "more standard" push down/deflect the guard hand and counter Jodan type approach from middle distance (as Frank Brennan used to do so well if you've seen any of his Kumite) - rather than the "in your face" bodycheck that you seem to be describing 

I can see it perhaps working once or twice occasionally due to the novelty/shock value perhaps - but I don't think that you'd get away with it (by your opponent - not the referees) very often..... 

Anything unusual can score the occasional surprise point in sparring - Yama-Tsuke for example or Tetsui-Uchi.....

Back to the point though - I can't see why any referee would penalise you for this tactic - but lets see what Moley and M-B etc. have to say as I'm pretty certain that they're familiar with current ITKF/UKTF Refereeing guidelines etc.

I also hope that we will meet someday.

Jim

[Makoto]

Actually I have been fooling around with yamazuki and the tate urakane from heian yondan as well. The tate uranken works well, no one blocks it well or knows what to do with it. It is almost directly take from kata, so all should be well with that one.

Thanks there Jimmy.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Actually I have been fooling around with yamazuki and the tate urakane from heian yondan as well. The tate uranken works well, no one blocks it well or knows what to do with it. It is almost directly take from kata, so all should be well with that one.

Thanks there Jimmy.

Yep - I was thinking of the move from Heian Shodan myself as it allows a bit more range/distance  - but I'm not suer if it also might  be frowned upon in Grading/Competition Kumite - as it seems to work quite well to the top of the head but I know that Kakato-Geri (Axe Kick) isn't allowed for safety reasons......

EDIT:  Of course there's no way that  I could manage Kakato-Geri to the top of the head these days...... 

[Mole Bach]

Hi Makoto,
Sorry it's taken me a while to see this post (work commitments and all that), anyway here's the deal...

The pushing movement that you described is prohibited within ITKF rules, although I tend to think that this is a good strategy to adopt to gain distance and surprise.

quote
7. PROHIBITED TECHNIQUES AND ACTIONS

7d grabbing, clinching, pushing or bodily crashing against the opponent.

As for the others,

7h Techniques which, by their nature, can not be controlled.

So the 'axe kick' is a definate no no.

Ura-ken is OK providing it meets the requirements eg target, stance, power, timing etc. the only problem with this though is the referee, and their interpretation of the 'effectiveness' of ura-ken.

[Makoto]

Yeah, I kind of thought that. But I might give it a try and see. You usually get only a warning if you grap the opponet the first time, so maybe they will just give me a warning.

If I can I will take a video of this move and show you guys. Give me a few days.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Interesting M-B - so no throws allowed ? or are they o.k. provided it's a continuation of a move ? 

[Mole Bach]

Interesting M-B - so no throws allowed ? or are they o.k. provided it's a continuation of a move ? 

Hmmmm,

(judges discretion I think) strictly speaking no, just depends on the ref.


and if it's Moley, then providing you stomp them into the ground and place your foot on their throat then it might be an ippon

[JimmyTheHoover]

ROFLMAO (with Moley's foot on my neck)