Topic: Kata Bunkai

[Liam]

Dont forget Bunkai is the application of kata, and the bunkai may be slighly different to what you practice in a kata

Have a look at this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZmmhtwYbQU&feature=related

[JimmyTheHoover]

Dont forget Bunkai is the application of kata, and the bunkai may be slighly different to what you practice in a kata

Have a look at this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZmmhtwYbQU&feature=related

IMO - when "that" starts to happen then it's no longer Bunkai but Oyo........or perhaps even Henka......

Jim

[Huw]

And the difference between bunkai, oyo and henka is ... ?

[JimmyTheHoover]

And the difference between bunkai, oyo and henka is ... ?

They are all simpler to undertand than Okuden Waza 

Good question though Huw - and one that's much debated on every Karate Forum on the Planet but from the reading I've done the "Overall Term" of Bunkai seems to cover four levels of interpretation of Kata sequences/techniques - with each one being further "removed" from the basic Kata performance techniques (kihon) and the way that I personally have come to think of them is as noted below (in increasing level of complexity/understanding.....)


Bunkai - "straight" application from basic analysis of the kata kihon techniques following kata moves and embusen

Oyo - "Possible" application still following kata kihon techniques but using "interpretive" application of the techniques - e.g. gedan-barai as a strike instead of block - embusen still basically the same but the defence sequences may contain additional techniques to complete the "neutralisation" of the threat.

Henka - "Extrapolated" application of Kata techniques which may appear very different from the kihon techniques and embusen is adjusted as required to make them work.

Okuden Waza - "Hidden/Secret" techniques "discovered" from detailed analysis of the kata (e.g. the "missing/changed bits...)


You may of course have a different interpretation but I would argue strongly that "Bunkai" per-se should not change the kata performance in any way.

EDIT: - other than of course to make the Kata Performance more "Real"   

Jim

[Andyeilio]

Dont forget Bunkai is the application of kata, and the bunkai may be slighly different to what you practice in a kata

Have a look at this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZmmhtwYbQU&feature=related

Yep, agree Liam, and from Jimmy's comments, the difference between the kata and the bunkai can be slight or marked, as usual, Jimmy's answers pose more questions

This video is good, I have seen it, not sure if it has been posted on another thread,

[JimmyTheHoover]

Yep, agree Liam, and from Jimmy's comments, the difference between the kata and the bunkai can be slight or marked, as usual, Jimmy's answers pose more questions Laughing

I trust that's in relation to the second post Andy as  thought that the first post was pretty self explanatory (except possibly for the addition of the mention of Henka possibly.....) 

Jim

P..S. I'd say that video is a mix of Bunkai and Oyo 

[Andyeilio]

Yep, agree Liam, and from Jimmy's comments, the difference between the kata and the bunkai can be slight or marked, as usual, Jimmy's answers pose more questions Laughing

I trust that's in relation to the second post Andy as  thought that the first post was pretty self explanatory (except possibly for the addition of the mention of Henka possibly.....) 

Jim

P..S. I'd say that video is a mix of Bunkai and Oyo 

To both actually Jimmy, they pose questions (good questions) for oneself to ponder.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Darn It ! - and there I was trying to confuse you Andy   

Jim

[Lloydie]

I think the video struggles to be realistic

<flame on>

Lloydie

[JimmyTheHoover]

I think the video struggles to be realistic

<flame on>

Lloydie

Human Torch Lloydie 

[JimmyTheHoover]

I think the video struggles to be realistic

<flame on>

Lloydie

....but don't you think that the "enforced/unrealistic" Shotokan stances will always tend to make Kata Bunkai demonstrations look somewhat "forced/unrealistic" ?

Jim (Always ready for a "Barbie" )

[Andyeilio]

I think the video struggles to be realistic

<flame on>

Lloydie

Which parts Dave, looking at some of the takedowns, they seem to me IMHO to over simplify the technique and force required, but as to the other parts, to a beginner, they appeared applicable.

I really appreciated some of the Bunkai sessions we have done in class, is it planned to do more?

[Lloydie]

I was being a bit over sceptical.  I reckon - for the reasons that Jim gives, that this "static" type of bunkai always looks a bit "rehearsed" .  However, there were some good bits, it's just the "flow" of the movements that sometimes I find a bit.........unrealistic?

Also, most bunkai, is based upon karate-type attacks, so loses credibility when not applied to normal violence i.e. HAOPV (Habitual Acts of Physical Violence).  I think that kata hold a wealth of moves that can be effective against HAOPV, but I have lately started to move against the "there is something hidden in every move" philosophy that maybe I held a few years ago.

Lloydie

[JimmyTheHoover]

I tend to agree Dave - I'm more of the opinion that there's something that can be used in every Kata......

....it's still worthwhile though trying to figure out these "static/formal" Bunkai for the Kata as I think it really helps with making your Kata performances "real" and not just stylised dance choreography.....

Jim