Topic: Why/What/Which - Kicks in Kata......

[JimmyTheHoover]

O.K.  - I'm bored so i thought that I'd post a question/topic that's "buzzed around my head" and/or annoyed me over the years.

Surely it's obvious from the topic title - so over to you 

[Moley]

Hate Yokogeri keagi uraken as in Heian Yondan and Sochin

used to be O.K. with it....
But lately .................................................

[JimmyTheHoover]

Hate Yokogeri keagi uraken as in Heian Yondan and Sochin

used to be O.K. with it....
But lately .................................................

Tend to agree with you Moley - don't like it - but don't "mind" performing it particularly  (I was originaly prodded to think about this many years ago by the yoko-keage in Heian nidan BTW)

....however - do you think it's the "right" kick for that part of the Kata ?

....does it matter if it's not "that" kick ?

....if not which "alternative" kick would you use - and why - and would you need to change any of the following moves to suit ?

[Sean]

Hate Yokogeri keagi uraken as in Heian Yondan and Sochin

used to be O.K. with it....
But lately .................................................

Tend to agree with you Moley - don't like it - but don't "mind" performing it particularly  (I was originaly prodded to think about this many years ago by the yoko-keage in Heian nidan BTW)

....however - do you think it's the "right" kick for that part of the Kata ?

....does it matter if it's not "that" kick ?

....if not which "alternative" kick would you use - and why - and would you need to change any of the following moves to suit ?

Depends how you view the application of the move IMO. If you use the second sequence in Heian Nidan as a figure 4 arm lock, then transition into a side wrist lock, followed by a hair grab (the "uraken") and a simultaneous yoko geri to the knee, it makes a lot of sense.

[JimmyTheHoover]

Quite right (IMO) Sean - but THAT depends on how YOU view the application....

I'm going with the "more traditional (taught more often?)" use the uraken to block/strike an attacking arm and simutaneously/just after counter with a short-range chudan keage to the floating ribs/kneecap/groin followed by a ushiro  empi......

[Sean]

Quite right (IMO) Sean - but THAT depends on how YOU view the application....

I'm going with the "more traditional (taught more often?)" use the uraken to block/strike an attacking arm and simutaneously/just after counter with a short-range chudan keage to the floating ribs/kneecap/groin followed by a ushiro  empi......

Yep, I think that works too. If you're going to turn into an attack and block with a circular movement like uraken, I think yoko geri seems like the right kick to use. What do you think is the most appropriate use Jimmy?

[JimmyTheHoover]

Not sure Sean 

....but depending on your intent kekomi to the thigh/knee (as in bassi dai/sho) works pretty well - or alternatively Mae-Geri Chudan/Jodan/Gedan - although this then necessitates a "fuller" body rotation before the kick.....

[Sean]

Not sure Sean 

....but depending on your intent kekomi to the thigh/knee (as in bassi dai/sho) works pretty well - or alternatively Mae-Geri Chudan/Jodan/Gedan - although this then necessitates a "fuller" body rotation before the kick.....

...which makes the turn back into Shuto Uke hard to explain, but early photograhps of Funakoshi definitely seem to show more of a mae geri movement at that stage of the kata.
As an interesting side point, I also study tai chi and in the Yang form all kicks are accompanied by an arm travelling in the same direction. Not sure how, or if its relevant to the discussion, but it definitely made me think of the yoko/uraken sequence so common in Shotokan kata when I was first taught it.

[JimmyTheHoover]

....so what would you suggest then as an "alternative" follow up sequence to replace the turn-shuto/ushiro-empi/fumikomi sequence then ? (assuming attack is coming from the "front" ?

- Re "Tai-Chi Observations" - Have'nt a "Scooby"    - but obviously "throwing" an arm technigue in the same direction as a kick will have (at least) two obvious benefits - 1) force additional body weight into the kick and 2) help keep core posture correct and discourage leaning back as you throw the kick.....

[Sean]

....so what would you suggest then as an "alternative" follow up sequence to replace the turn-shuto/ushiro-empi/fumikomi sequence then ? (assuming attack is coming from the "front" ?

I'm not really sure about that. Its the same with the hiza geri followed by shuto uke in Heian Yondan, or the yoko geri/shuto sequence in Bassai - always seems a bit strange to turn directly into that technique on your blind side, unless you keep contact throughout the move and use the turn as a throw, but that's a bit of a stretch I think.

[JimmyTheHoover]

......but (without straying away TOO much from the topic if this thread) what's so wrong about the kata sequence as a reactive defence against an attack from the front as you finish off an opponent to the rear ? (given that in application you might well use sabaki to change the angle of the block......)

[Sean]

With some sabaki, its feasible to turn and use shuto as a block, but to spin on one leg and be in a position to defend an attack, which could only possibly be seen at the last minute, seems pretty unfeasible.
Personally I use a slight backward movement in Heian Nidan, Kanku Dai, etc when I  have to turn 180 degrees into shuto uke, for this reason. I'm not sure how "ok" that is though It just feels more natural to me.

[JimmyTheHoover]

....seems pretty natural to me - if i'm interpreting what you say correctly Sean - since i've been taught that the "step down" into the "reverse"  Shuto-Uke is performed as a Fumikomi-Geri to the "rear" following the kick..... (which obviously forces/allows a rearwards body weight shift/drop as you block Shuto-Uke.....)

[JimmyTheHoover]

....any more for any more ? (more kicks more kata more discussion of kicks in kata and possible alternatives etc. etc. etc. ) 

[Moley]

NiJuShiHo

Scamae Uke Yoko geri Kekomi Jodan Guaku Tsuki